Jazz Guitar Fingerstyle or Pick Dilemma

**merseybeat** · 06-21-2009, 01:51 AM

Hi, I really hope someone can assist here.

I am at a crossroads with regards to picking; I have been using a plectrum for about 20 years (using both Alternate and Economy picking). These days though I find I much prefer using my fingers? By playing with my fingers I find I have much more feel on the instrument and play much more melodic lines. The downside though is a reduction in speed (I have developed some nice fancy “Show runs” with a pleck over the years).
I don’t mind compromising these tricks to achieve a much more overall rounded playing style.

My main question is what is the average tempo you guys find yourself playing “Standards” at!

I find I can quite happily play 16 note phrases per bar at 110BPM using my fingers.

And as I said earlier, Playing with my fingers makes me feel more in touch with the instrument!

I am also trying to find a way of having a plectrum on the ready to switch too if needed but so far it all feels very clumsy!

Anyone else ever faced this decision?

Kindest Regards

Eddie Hughes

**FatJeff** · 06-21-2009, 09:13 AM

I'm in the same boat, and I haven't found a good solution yet. I prefer my fingers over the pick, but I can't play the head to Ornithology w/o a pick if I want to go over 120bpm!

I don't like the "palm the pick" method, because (a) I'm pretty sure I'll drop it at some point, and (b) being a classical guitarist, I have zero dexterity with my pinky and I need the thumb and three other digits to comp 4-note 7th chords. Right now I use all fingers for slower numbers, and all pick for tunes that are faster. Not ideal, though.

The "put the pick in your mouth" method seems to be pretty ubiquitous, albeit gross.

**reventlov** · 06-21-2009, 09:38 AM

Herco make a combination of a thumbpick and a standard pick that you may find worth investigating - google 'herco flat thumb pick' and you'll find them available online from several different suppliers.

**Jazzaluk** · 06-21-2009, 09:43 AM

I am also trying to integrate both the pleck and finger-style. I've always learned tunes as finger-style first and I have much better phrasing with fingers but I like the nice round tone that comes from a pick. Playing "hide-the-pick-in-the-palm" actually inhibits my ability to use the finger-style technique and it doesn't seem worth the effort.

**timscarey** · 06-21-2009, 02:40 PM

This may be cheating or just bad technique but... I'm a bass player, when I play guitar I use my thumb, first finger and second finger on my right hand. I am able to play extrememly fast even on one string (a la victor wooten) t-2-1-t-2-1 etc..

This allows for super fast arpeggios up and down as well as tremolo and chords that skip strings. but I usually keep a pick in my mouth cause I like the salty taste, ha ha.

I learned this stuff from practicing the banjo. It's the same concept as a roll. there are some nice Tony Trishka and Bela Fleck tutorials on you tube.

**rabbit** · 06-21-2009, 07:34 PM

Jazzaluk,
That pick is a 'HERCO.'
I've got one just like it.

**Shane** · 06-25-2009, 12:02 PM

Have you thought about a "hybrid" sort of approach using a flatpick and fingers?

**FatJeff** · 06-25-2009, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

I am seriously considering using a thumb-pick like the one used on this video. It looks and sounds like a good solution in this player's hands. It seems that a light-touch needs to be developed. There are a few close-ups of the pick on the vid. Im not sure where I could buy one of these thumb picks however.

Not sure how that solves the problem of playing single-line melodies fast, though, unless you do that all with your thumb.

Spent quite a bit of time last night working on the timing of finishing up the head to Ornithology (playing with pick), sticking the pick in my mouth, and then transitioning to fingers for the comping. I play improv over that song slow enough to use my fingers, so until the last reprise of the head, I chew on the pick, then finally grab it back out of my mouth and finish off with the pick in my fingers.

What a hassle!

**Jazzaluk** · 06-25-2009, 02:18 PM

The speed thing in not too much of a concern for me. I can play lines with my fingers at all the tempos that I enjoy (although to some that may not be fast enough). I don't spend too much time on tunes that move faster than my small reptilian brain.

The main issue for me is tone. I feel I'm missing the ability to get that fat round tone of pick against string for some chord melody arrangements and when playing some heads. When I get to improv I prefer my fingers since I'm most comfortable with it and I hear lnes differently.

Unfortunately, most thumbpicks feel way too stiff when they are strapped on. I can't seem to control the attack nearly as well as using a pleck.
These hybrid-type thumbpicks seem to offer compromise.

@ Rabbit...thanks for the Herco name. I also found similar picks by Fred Kelly on the net.

**Zip** · 06-29-2009, 01:59 AM

This discussion seems to be mostly around speed and feel, both important of course. However, another angle is improvisation. I play both finger and pick styles and love both; but personally I find it much much easier to improvise using a pick.
Most of the great jazz guitar improvisors are pick players. Most of the great improvised recordings of the past are from pick players. With a few notable exceptions like Earl Klugh and Martin Taylor, there are not many great fingerstyle improvisors in my (perhaps limited) opinion.

**Dystonian_Mode** · 06-29-2009, 02:40 AM

Since I've developed focal dystonia in my right hand, I've been pretty much forced to play with a pick -- a Herco thumb pick at that. My fingers just don't respond (in my right hand) anymore and it's almost impossible to hold a regular pick without it constantly slipping out of position. I honestly thought I was doomed until I started fiddling around with the Herco thumb pick.

Before the focal dystonia, I pretty much played exclusively finger-style. I would say there are benefits to either style, but to be honest, I wasn't too much a fan of the hybrid still when my fingers were working properly.

**reventlov** · 06-29-2009, 07:42 AM

The hybrid style is not that great for fingerstyle because it effectively cuts out the use of the index finger. The Herco (or the Fred Kelly) thumbpick is a much better option, it allows for immediate switches to be made from plectrum to fingers and back again as often as you like without any hassle.

**FatJeff** · 06-29-2009, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by reventlov

The hybrid style is not that great for fingerstyle because it effectively cuts out the use of the index finger. The Herco (or the Fred Kelly) thumbpick is a much better option, it allows for immediate switches to be made from plectrum to fingers and back again as often as you like without any hassle.

So with the Herco plectrum, I'm guessing that the only real advantage over just using your plain old thumb is better tone?

**FatJeff** · 06-29-2009, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by Zip

This discussion seems to be mostly around speed and feel, both important of course. However, another angle is improvisation. I play both finger and pick styles and love both; but personally I find it much much easier to improvise using a pick.
Most of the great jazz guitar improvisors are pick players. Most of the great improvised recordings of the past are from pick players. With a few notable exceptions like Earl Klugh and Martin Taylor, there are not many great fingerstyle improvisors in my (perhaps limited) opinion.

Well, probably most of *all* jazz guitarists are pick players, so I'm not really sure how to interpret your stats.

**mangotango** · 06-30-2009, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by merseybeat

Hi, I really hope someone can assist here.

I am at a crossroads with regards to picking; I have been using a plectrum for about 20 years (using both Alternate and Economy picking). These days though I find I much prefer using my fingers? By playing with my fingers I find I have much more feel on the instrument and play much more melodic lines. The downside though is a reduction in speed (I have developed some nice fancy “Show runs” with a pleck over the years).
I don’t mind compromising these tricks to achieve a much more overall rounded playing style.

My main question is what is the average tempo you guys find yourself playing “Standards” at!

I find I can quite happily play 16 note phrases per bar at 110BPM using my fingers.

And as I said earlier, Playing with my fingers makes me feel more in touch with the instrument!

I am also trying to find a way of having a plectrum on the ready to switch too if needed but so far it all feels very clumsy!

Anyone else ever faced this decision?

Kindest Regards

Eddie Hughes

Alright there our Ed,

In a similar position, and have started thumbs and first 3 fingers to pluck chords when comping, using thumb to strum chords when needed. Plec tucked away in crook of folded little finger.

Not too much of a problem to get back to the plec once I need it, but I have a cunning plan (my lord

) to revert back to the plec if in need of a quick change. I bought one of those pick-holding devices that clip onto a mikestand and load it up with spare pleccies.

MIC STAND PICK HOLDER 5010 DUNLOP MIC STAND PICK HOLDER 5010 - Stagebeat - 5010 pick picks plectrum plectrums plectra plec plecs plek pleks pleck plecks holder holders

When the time for a rapid change comes, drop the one that you're holding and snatch a fresh one from the mikestand.

Then go around the floor later, trawling for the plecs that you've dropped.

.

To be used in times of stress only, granted, but................

**reventlov** · 06-30-2009, 12:09 PM

"I disagree. I regularly switch between pick only to hybrid to fingers only all the time. I play fingers only when playing solo, but always use a pick when playing ensemble. I think it is just what you get used to."

Yes but the point about something like the Herco thumbpick is that it makes switching between pick and fingerstyle practical and immediate during the same tune. If you play fingerstyle when solo and use a pick in ensembles, the problem of rapid switching between the two probably doesnt arise for you.

"So with the Herco plectrum, I'm guessing that the only real advantage over just using your plain old thumb is better tone?"

The real advantage of the Herco is that it lets you switch immediately back and forth between playing with a pick or playing fingerstyle, within the same piece of music. You could for instance go directly from a fast scalic passage played with the plectrum, to some fingerpicked arpeggios or chords then straight back again without having to do anything involving moving, dropping or palming the plectrum. If a player's approach to guitar doesn't involve the need for that, then there's no real advantage to the Herco plectrum at all.

The problem with hybrid picking is that it involves both thumb and index finger to hold the plectrum in place, leaving the weaker fingers to do the fingerpicking - the Herco frees up the index finger and gives you that extra
bit of control.

As regards tone - I think that's a personal thing; I've been messing with the Herco for a couple of weeks and I didn't actually like the tone at first, but I filed the thing down a bit to get closer in size and shape to my usual brand of picks and now it's sounding fine. Like several posters on this thread, I sometimes use pick and sometimes fingers - I used to sometimes used the hybrid approach too, but all the things I play using that technique feel much easier with the Herco. I probably won't use it exclusively but I see a place for it in my playing.

**FatJeff** · 06-30-2009, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by reventlov

The real advantage of the Herco is that it lets you switch immediately back and forth between playing with a pick or playing fingerstyle, within the same piece of music. You could for instance go directly from a fast scalic passage played with the plectrum, to some fingerpicked arpeggios or chords then straight back again without having to do anything involving moving, dropping or palming the plectrum.

Yes, but you're still using the thumb. Wes Montgomery's amazing thumb prowess aside, I find that I can use a plectrum - held between my RH thumb and index fingers - a *lot* faster than I can either pluck with my RH fingers (classical style) or with my thumb.

So, unless I decide to put my thumb on a crash course in getting super fast, I'm still in the same boat. And then, if I get my thumb up to speed, I may as well just use it naked (w/o the Herco) - because I've got the nails to get the tone.

Or am I missing something?

**reventlov** · 06-30-2009, 02:22 PM

"Or am I missing something?"

Yes but it's probably because I'm not explaining it clearly - when you use the Herco as a pick, you put your index finger on it and use it exactly as you normally use a pick. The player on the video that appears earlier on this thread does it as I'm attempting clumsily to describe it - check out from around 2:15 to around 2:50 or so to see him move smoothly back and forth between pick and fingers several times.

**FatJeff** · 06-30-2009, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by reventlov

"Or am I missing something?"

Yes but it's probably because I'm not explaining it clearly - when you use the Herco as a pick, you put your index finger on it and use it exactly as you normally use a pick. The player on the video that appears earlier on this thread does it as I'm attempting clumsily to describe it - check out from around 2:15 to around 2:50 or so to see him move smoothly back and forth between pick and fingers several times.

AHA!!!!

Now I get it. I'll give this thing a try.

**derek** · 06-30-2009, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by reventlov

"Or am I missing something?"

Yes but it's probably because I'm not explaining it clearly - when you use the Herco as a pick, you put your index finger on it and use it exactly as you normally use a pick. The player on the video that appears earlier on this thread does it as I'm attempting clumsily to describe it - check out from around 2:15 to around 2:50 or so to see him move smoothly back and forth between pick and fingers several times.

Yeah, that is the reason I posted the Scotty Anderson vids. However, I am fine with pick and fingers is my point. I don't need my index finger to finger pick with, as I do just fine with middle, ring and pinky. However, I did study classical for a few years, so maybe that makes the difference.

Again, I think it is what you get used to.

**merseybeat** · 07-15-2009, 08:20 AM

Wow thanks for all your suggestions! Sorry its been a while for me to reply but I have been getting to grips with the half/whole diminished scale (Awesome. flexible and can be very humorous!).

After trying out a few of the methods including using the Herco I have settled playing entirely with my fingers. This is mainly due to the control of tone I get with this technique!

I have also overcome the speed run problems by learning to use the tip of my first finger as an alternating speed pick! At first this technique suffered a few "overtone spills" but after a few weeks of practice I have learned to control it! I can also adjust my attack (and even mute level) using the same finger tip!

So to summarize for general solo playing I finger pick my solos using 3 fingers (working on the fourth). and for those nice quick Benson type chops I use my alternating first finger by brushing/alternating the finger tip across the strings! Man I feel reborn!

Thanks to you all!

Eddie