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Originally Posted by grahambop
Nick - Hi.
I'm not inclined to get into an argument about anything. I am responding directly to your question and that is the only reason for this post.
Note that for me - a classically trained guitarist from the age of 12 playing for over fifty years and as someone who has no difficulty navigating either the fretboard nor especially with m7b5 or dim 7, etc. - I am not anxious to "fix what ain't broken". I am a physician, so I do have some knowledge of anatomy, physiology, and muscle pathologies. I am less focused on honing technique as maintaining it and exploring musical creativity (not to sound "lofty"- just a statement of my focus).
On another thread Ronjazz divulged that he suffered from focal dystonia which is problem that can affect musicians. We do not know the cause of it precisely, but it is associated with "overuse" syndromes", similar to carpal tunnel syndromes, though the two are distinct. Ron is a pro for many years. He had to adapt to this serious problem for any musician. Note that I am not saying his problem was caused by overuse, but certainly that is a distinct possibility. I mention this only as an example of muscle/tendon problems that can be cause by one's technique issues.
Most of all, it is merely my opinion. If that arpeggio drill works for you, by all means do it. After fifty years of playing I don't feel much limitation in navigating the fretboard. Occasionally I pull out my classical texts to review my technique - a technical 'tune-up' - but I would suggest and others may disagree that some studies resemble classical arpeggio studies like what Jordan posted with a very natural flow for the fretting and others diverge from classical approaches. I have also suggested that much guitar playing is by nature 'arpeggios' in any case and that one can incorporate that into one's practice of jazz standards. A 'radical' thought here espoused by such guitarists as Joe Pass and Martin Taylor to name just two. I got pilloried for that proposition. I have no wish to "offend" anyone for my personal opinion, but I believe that I have a right to it. Don't you agree?
In any case I don't think my opinion should be a matter of controversy, as unlike some here I am not forcing it on anyone into conformity with it. You do what you like.Last edited by targuit; 01-23-2016 at 12:37 PM.
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01-23-2016 12:34 PM
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another simple exercise: take a single arpeggio/chord quality like Maj7. I'll explain from a CAGED reference.
Play all your one octave fingering forms for a given inversion in the following order:
Play two, one octave fingerings from the 6th string, then the 5th, then the 4th, and then one fingering from the 3rd string.
For each starting string, play the fingering from the higher starting finger first, then the lower finger. For example, from the sixth string play the root position Maj7 arpeggio from the 4th finger, then the 2nd finger, then move to the 5th string and continue.
Objectives for this exercise:
Focus on learning 1-octave fingerings for a single chord quality, single inversion, for all of your fingerings and starting strings - without staying in one position.
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another basic exercise - Chord quality drill:
For one inversion (like root position), one starting string, one starting note (like "C") play one octave 7th chord arpeggios in an order such as:
Maj7, Dom7, Mi7, M7b5, Dim7.
also include Maj7#5 and MiMaj7
also 7sus4, 7#5 and 7b5
Apply to all starting strings and multiple starting notes (no need to do all 12)
Objectives for this exercise:
Challenge your ability to render any chord quality arpeggio from a single spot
For a challenging variation on this exercise try the flash card or buddy system drill - which includes a challenge to play any chord at random - from a single starting string. For example, you could have a buddy or buddette call out CMaj7, G#mi7b5, Bb7, E7#5, etc., etc.Last edited by fumblefingers; 01-23-2016 at 01:02 PM.
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Graham -
I did not see your post when I was writing mine. Your study is nicely conceived and more in line with what comes to my mind as the subject of this thread. I just played through it, though if I may, I admit that I took a different line in terms of the actual fingering. But I like the flow.
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Other very basic exercises are:
1. Full position arpeggios (explained below)**
2. Two octave arpeggios in one position/fingering pattern (ascend R-3-5-7-R-3-5-7-8, then go back down)
3. Two octave arpeggios in two adjacent fingerings (basically - one octave in the lower fingering pattern, one octave in the higher fingering pattern). This involves a shift.
4. Three octave arpeggios This obviously involves shifts.
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"Full position" arpeggio exercise.
This basically means play an arpeggio across all 6 strings in a single fingering pattern, covering the lowest and highest notes in that fingering pattern for the arpeggio in question. I like to start this from the root and end on the root, whether it be from string 6,5, or 4.
apply to all chord qualities.
apply to all fingering patterns (e.g. 5 for CAGED)
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More exercises:
Play a single chord quality with moveable roots. Play each new chord either in the same position/area, or for a greater challenge move up and down a single string (6,5,4,3), or alternate between two starting strings 6 and 4, 5 and 3, etc. Challenge yourself.
Example:
Start with Cmaj7, then DMaj7, then EMaj7. (root movement by whole step)
Apply to various root movement intervals, half step, whole step, cycle of 5ths)
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Thanks Jay. There are probably loads of ways to finger it (and of course you could shift to other positions too). Originally Posted by targuit
Some of the classical guitar editions I have acquired over the years have got the most peculiar fingerings and I've ended up writing my own all over them. But I guess it's down to whatever feels right for each player.
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Of course the above "drills" were for "forms learning and memorization".
We also have more musical exercises:
II-V (in major and minor)
II-V-I (in major and minor)
Turnarounds
Dominant Cycles
Coltrane changes
At first you can do these up and down, but then you should voice lead them (nearest note approach)
Then:
arpeggio etudes on tunes. again up and down, then voice led.
All said, this is just touching on jazz vocab, because its pure arpeggios. (i.e there are no embellishments, chromatic approach notes, enclosures, etc.)
But i believe they are all worthwhile and each should be learned. No need to do all of them in each practice session though. Vary the routine.
cheers.
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Yea great exercises. The only thing that is personally important.... do you have a fingering system that connects all the different types of application together... are they somewhat like individual licks that are developed and embellished...
or is there a connection... usually the fingerings... but just position licks and patterns can be a system in themselves.
There is the fretboard organization, the organization of the drill... and then the organization of the performance of the drill....
The test... generally how much do you have to think about realizing the drill, the performance. And how much do you need to watch just to perform the drill.
When you transpose or go through cycles... as fumble fingers examples, is each transposition or cycle like learning something new... or is it simple mechanics.
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Sounds like you figured out the answer to your question already. If not, let me know. Originally Posted by Reg
When I was working with Brad, there was no tab... In fact we rarely wrote down anything. It was mostly us talking, he'd present a challenge or something like this, explain the parameters, and then I'd sort of have to think my way through it. Long after I could already play it, I sat down and wrote out the tab. I think it's better to learn things that way. It forces me to slow down and really understand the fretboard, the theory, the fingerings, and how it all connects. Reading new exercises quickly is fun. But muscling through figuring out how to do it is much more worth while. As I'm sure you know.
We had previously talked about the 4 min7 arpeggio positions. His opinion was to have 4, and to set them up this way, as he felt they were helpful to speed, fluidity, navigating the fretboard, etc.
But then I had to figure it out. In a way, it was more of a brain exercise than a finger exercise. I think it's good to work out the brain like this. It helps us speed up our ability to think through challenging musical situations. Which is just as important, if not more so, then just having fast muscle memory... for me.
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Thanks Jordon... yea, agree with all said.
Just another thought about the shapes... I've always liked the way some pentatonic patterns perform on the guitar. You can use as two note dyads , three note triads etc... to create moving harmonic cells of sound. and also have a melodic line going on, personally lead line and somewhat counter lines. But they generally physically perform easily on guitar. And have a natural articulation pattern from fingerings and picking etc... My thought, do you ever use that type of approach for realizing your development with triads etc... seems like a very guitar friendly possibility. rhythmic
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Reg - please explain what you mean by "a fingering system that connects all the different types of applications together" Originally Posted by Reg
I'm not 100% certain what you're getting at, but my first instinct would be to say "of course, how could you not?"
As you do for scales, you do for arpeggios - you play them in position. each finger is assigned to one fret, and in some cases you have to either shift or stretch to get a note.
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I don't, Reg. It basically all starts at the piano with the ear. I'll pick a chord category and test all 12 notes against that chord. If a note sounds in harmony with the chord, I put it to one side. If it seems to clash against it, I put it to the other side. Originally Posted by Reg
Once I write down all the notes I like against the chord, then I just go through and find all the triads. This way I'm not relying on any scales or theory to tell me what works. Just my ear. And the triads I find may be different from the triads that others might find because it's based on the ear... which means I might think certain notes work while someone else might not or vice versa.
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Yikes...
We all sound like a bunch of chickens pecking at each other over here. Now I see how bad I got...
Organize a meetup and play face to face. Unfortunately the internet strips us all of our innermost humanity.
I've been pedantic as well, but learning music is a LONG and PERSONAL journey. At the end of it all you really do realize that you needed an eternity to study it all. But the journey should be fun.
When I study arpeggios, I have fun with them. I get all into my tone, I get my shifts as close to perfect as I can get them (I like using the entire neck), and then I start messing with it all. Experiment. Have fun. Explore.
Play a Cmajor triad arpeggio over a Db drone.
Play an F7 arpeggio over B7 vamp
As was said to me, have fun with it. Music is zen, life is work.Last edited by Irez87; 01-24-2016 at 03:43 PM.
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I respect your opinion... but I am not sure this can help if there's a problem... I always was kind of suspicious when somene usese such methods to 'secure' this 'theoretic intevention'..I don't, Reg. It basically all starts at the piano with the ear. I'll pick a chord category and test all 12 notes against that chord. If a note sounds in harmony with the chord, I put it to one side. If it seems to clash against it, I put it to the other side.
Once I write down all the notes I like against the chord, then I just go through and find all the triads. This way I'm not relying on any scales or theory to tell me what works. Just my ear.
You either hear it or not.. if you do not hear what theory describes you take some other rapproach...
Actually any theory is just a system of organization of hearing expreience...
it cannot tell you what to do, it helps to realize in practice what you hear..
I mean it makes no difference form those who use scale...
hearing changes - once you estimate your note choice by piano you're immidiately in teh same situation as the guy with the scales...
hearing is basic approach.. I presume taht if anyone wants to do music - first thing he does is hearing... it's his instiinct
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I wish hearing for me was as basic as it seems to have been for you. But it's taken me decades to get to where my ear is today, and it will only be getting better as I continue to practice it. And the better it gets, the more I'm able to listen to notes, chords, scales, melodies, etc and hear them in deeper ways, and make personal choices about what I do and don't like. Originally Posted by Jonah
As for the rest of your response... ok.Last edited by jordanklemons; 01-24-2016 at 03:46 PM.
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well... all I can say is I reallly disagree...We all sound like a bunch of chickens pecking at each other over here.
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Hey Irez... if your saying don't bother to work at music... just have fun. That is a possible road or path to playing music, but for most .... that's a dead end. Personally if one doesn't "work" on learning to play music. Your just not going to get very good at performing music.
I get the go out and perform live thing, that's what I've done all my live... I played 6 gigs last week and recorded... in studio Mon. and Tues. this week, Big bad gig Tues. night etc...
But If you just go play... your going to be working on your performance skills, your going to reinforce what ever skills you have. Which also means your going to also develop any bad or wrong skills. Fingering such as arpeggios are classic example of how just knowing a little usually is just enough to help you crash and burn when you go out and make music.
By that I mean just learning one octave fingerings and patterns on the fretboard... and throwing them all together. When you try and use them performing... it takes years because... your not using a organizational system which is designed for the guitar. The taking years thing is because there is no complete organization. and only way to put it all together is pound it into the ground until you eventually memorize best you can.
The guitar is a physical instrument... it's different from other instruments. You can get away not having great technique, (learning to perform on Guitar), playing a lot of music... but generally not Jazz, and definitely not at the speed of Jazz.
The whole think about just go learn tunes etc... you still need to be able to play them.
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Oh brother...
Deep breaths.
No Reg, I never said to not work at music. I said that music should be fun. Music should be creative. Music should get us in touch with our inner child. All the guys that I studied with have the same disposition and they're all important musicians in their own right.
Anyway, I put a lot of work into my music, stayed up in the practice room until 5 in the AM because I was shedding various techniques and tunes. At the end of it all, I didn't learn much because I had the wrong mentality about my practice. Music doesn't owe me anything. When I was in college, I thought music owed me for all the time I spent in the shed. Music is way too ubiquitous and omnipresent. I love making music, as it gives me solace and allows me with another mode of communication (use, communication) to partake in, another language (yes, I am one of those people). Music is an adventure.
Word of advice, dial it back a notch.
Oh, and Reg, I play jazz at the speed that is the most harmonically and melodically rich for me. Jazz was never a contest for me, and I always hated players that approached the craft as such. Communication. Otherwise it's a solipsistic endeavor, and that's too messy for me. Keep that kinda stuff for the bedroom
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Irez...and Reg, I play jazz at the speed that is the most harmonically and melodically rich for me. Jazz was never a contest for me
it always seemed to me that expression ''at the speed of jazz'' does not mean just fast notes played... it's more about aesthetics... it's part of jazz... you're on the station but this train does not make a stop you have to learn to jump on...
in general I understand your point... beacuse at the beginning I had sometimes the same issues about it...
Reg might be a bit pushing sometimes in concern of techiques... it's actually approach of any real teacher and professional...
I just want to say that it's not really necessary to prove that one has to play music etc. It's kind of presumption.. it's not what it's hrer about...
yes, we should clean up the room before living in it comfortably... and nobody says we shall live to clean it...
and Reg himself stressed a few times that it's not your goal to perform excercises... your goal is to pass them through as soon as possible...
PS
Again I respect your point... just wanted to show that from my point of view there's no contradition in it...
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Irez... I am way dialed back. I'm not teaching Zen guitar or guitar through Meditation. On this thread... we're talking about Arpeggio drills... pretty basic technique.
Generally my comments are for all... I'm not just talking to You... as I am right now. Don't take everything so personal...it isn't. And yes as Jonah pointed out... Live at the speed of jazz... is very simply being able to perform jazz live. I'm happy whatever that is to you... works.
From any of your posts... your performance skills don't reflect lots of time spent working on technique. I'm obviously missing something... so
Why don't you actually post some examples of how to perform arpeggios on the guitar and the organization behind how you perform them in real time... or notate out some examples. Rather than general comments about life. Which... I generally appreciate and agree with. But your not your teachers... or what they may teach or believe to be the best approach for performing arpeggios etc... I'm not teaching anything I can't already cover... I've already been down the arpeggio path or road to being able to perform Jazz. I'm not trying to figure anything out...
And please... don't tell me to dial back, unless you have something to give. Don't like what I post... don't read it. You have a better approach... show some actual examples.
I apologize all for my somewhat rude comments... they are directed towards Irez.
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If you want to take a stab at something challenging, for me it's a lifetime achievement goal to reach, look up the Pat Methaney warm up seminario. You can find it transcribed and printable to work on along with a 7 minute video of the man playing it. Printed out it came out to 12 pages.
I started working on it slowly as I am very unused to sight reading and work it out a bit at a time. It's basically a compilation of arpeggios in various keys and time signatures strung out.
For the advanced players it should not be too challenging, for me it's a monumental challenge.
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Another approach that every guitarist should practice is the three octave arps that will give them the ability to see the guitar as an entire whole, and be able to play it pianistically.
Although they are triads, triads can be viewed as the extensions of any dominant 7th chord, the inversions of minor and maj7th chords, etc...
There are a few different approaches to 3 oct.arps that are equally valid.
1) Johnny Smith's alt. picking 3 oct. arps, which can be found in either of his two books "Aids To Technique" or "The Johnny Smith Guitar Method". I practice the entire cycle of fifths and their relative minors, and the cycle of fourths with relative minors, every day as JS suggests in his book at 120 bpm, without looking at my left hand.
2) Barry Galbraith's diagonal approach to 7th chords, which are used in the beginning examples in his "Fingerboard Workbook- Concepts in Logical Fingering". He applies this concept to his fingerings for "Donna Lee".
I practice these every day, with and without slurs.
3) The various economic picking versions of these, put out by guitarists such as Jimmy Bruno, Joe Sgro, and Chuck Wayne. I don't use this approach, so I don't know which books they're in.
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Hey Sgcim do you practice 3 octave arpeggios, all types and scales. Where do you use them or are they more in the direction of knowing how to transition on different strings and fingerings up the fretboard, and just technical work on becoming comfortable with the 12 fret repeating pattern concepts, (3 octaves). thanks
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Hey Sgcim... thanks for reply. I'm in SF area, not Canada... love it up there, really. Always dug Ed's playing... didn't really know him personally.
So 336... I hope that's not 8th notes... that sounds dangerous.... so they are basically an effect, more in the direction of accenting a solo. Or like you hinted at... over a Bb7 in a longer time setting, you use the C triad as a tonal reference and create relationships and develop with ....that C or C triad as the reference for organization. Or are you still relating to the Bb7...and just using Bb13#11 as the reference, but... in a modal context, different relationships between the notes based on modal implications from that Bb13#11.
So really all the drills, exercises, fingerings, and even understanding theory, harmony... in the end they are all just tools to help one be able to perform music on the guitar. the better one gets all the technical skills and the musical understandings together .... your performance will have a better chance of happening.
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