One way to hold a guitar pick

[pamosmusic]

Ah! Got it. I was confusing what vintagelove explained with what I know as economy picking Also, wouldn't what one is doint prior to striking the first D, or what you intend to do after striking the D be the driving choice of whether they would strike the D with an up stroke or a down stroke?

I still find it very surprising that so many put so much thought into a picking method/technique. It just occurs as an "auto pilot" function for me. I'm thinking it's more for reading than for blowing? When I was reading, I did actually think about how I might want to pick when having to skip strings. But, even then, I'd try it once both ways, then, I'd pretty much know what I wanted to do. I was never really into correctness with my right hand. I just simply "told" might right hand what I wanted it to do . . and it did it. (that's something I've nver been quite able to do with my wife . . but, I digress). The left hand/fingers is where I alway focused all of my efforts to perfect correctness in technique.

Well this is where I'd have to part ways my friend. I think that agonizing over how you physically hold the pick is over analysis. I do, however, put tons and tons and tons of practice into how to control the motions. So much of jazz is in what you do with the pick. Jazz is about rhythm and accent patterns and slurring. That's big-time pick-hand stuff so I don't know that having it rely on autopilot is a good thing necessarily. I also am a firm believer in the connection between your ear as it relates to improvising and your technique. If something is out of your technical realm of experience your ear is going to be hard-pressed to hear it.

Two disclaimers - I'm not saying you should sit there and agonize over picking as you play but I am saying that the only way to allow the autopilot to take over when you play (let alone be effective) is to really pay a lot of attention to your pick control when you're practicing.
- I'm also not saying that you'll never play something you haven't practiced explicitly. I'm just saying that you won't hear something that's completely out of the realm of your technical experience. You won't really hear lines that you don't have a concept of how to execute.

[Patrick2]

Well this is where I'd have to part ways my friend. I think that agonizing over how you physically hold the pick is over analysis. I do, however, put tons and tons and tons of practice into how to control the motions. So much of jazz is in what you do with the pick. Jazz is about rhythm and accent patterns and slurring. That's big-time pick-hand stuff so I don't know that having it rely on autopilot is a good thing necessarily. I also am a firm believer in the connection between your ear as it relates to improvising and your technique. If something is out of your technical realm of experience your ear is going to be hard-pressed to hear it.

Two disclaimers - I'm not saying you should sit there and agonize over picking as you play but I am saying that the only way to allow the autopilot to take over when you play (let alone be effective) is to really pay a lot of attention to your pick control when you're practicing.
- I'm also not saying that you'll never play something you haven't practiced explicitly. I'm just saying that you won't hear something that's completely out of the realm of your technical experience. You won't really hear lines that you don't have a concept of how to execute.

No . . . I don't think we're far apart in our views on this matter. I find myself doing much of what you say is necessary during practicing . . without thinking [excessively] about it. I guess that's what I meant by auto pilot . . but perhaps the term was too absolute or interpretted as such. During an improv . . I'm constantly using a good deal of slurring. I'm now suspecting that the slurring sometimes occurs automatically or unintentionally based upon where I'm going . . or where I'm coming from with my pick.?.? Actually, now that I think about it . . I'm pretty sure it does. Probably a residual habit from all of those 5 minute long solos I've taken over Allman Brother songs . . lolol. But, I do prefer that style even when blowing jazz. I do focus on picking when I want to smoothly execute stacatto or even legatto runs with no slurs. But, that's a pretty brief period in any of my improvs and used only to accent or highlight a specific run or line.

[Patrick2]

I spent the first 35 years of my jazz guitar playing days never giving any thought to picking: the music and my limitations always dictated what I played. I do focus on picking a bit now because it's a fun new thing to practice, and it helps keep my chops, such as they are, in shape.

However, I don't believe it will make any difference on the bandstand, or make me a better player. I suck and will always suck, no matter what and how much I practice.
In fact I don't believe that one can improve *technically* after a certain age, one can only improve musically in ways that don't depend on technique. I know this is likely to be an unpopular assertion on a forum populated with lots of middle aged and old guys, but I suspect the *very very few* middle aged players on this forum who *demonstrably* have great chops and can play jazz well already had that ability by their early 20s. In particular, except for teenaged beginners, I don't think focusing on picking technique is likely to make much difference on how they sound in the long run.

I believe that one CAN improve technically at any age, especially if they were to allow their technical abilities to wane prior to such serious practice. So, perhaps I use the word improve, but recover might be more appropriate? Dunno. Focused and consistent practice will improve a person back up to a pervious point when their chops were at their best. I have to believe that it would improve them beyond that point as well. Take a person who just starts learning guitar at age 65 . . a virtual beginner. Teach him a basic diatonic scale. Tell him to go home and practice it for 2 days and come back to show you what he has. Then, have him do nothing but practice that scale for 3 weeks straight . . up and down the fretboard and in every position. A G Major scale in the 2-6 fingering 2nd position, two octaves ascending and descending. Instruct that person to move up a half step at a time . . all the way up and all the way back down the fretboard. Inj three weeks that 65 year old person who might have been stumbling terrible when he returned after practicing 2 days . . would more than likely be able to own that scale after wood shedding it for 3 weeks.

[grahambop]

I spent the first 35 years of my jazz guitar playing days never giving any thought to picking: the music and my limitations always dictated what I played. I do focus on picking a bit now because it's a fun new thing to practice, and it helps keep my chops, such as they are, in shape.

However, I don't believe it will make any difference on the bandstand, or make me a better player. I suck and will always suck, no matter what and how much I practice.
In fact I don't believe that one can improve *technically* after a certain age, one can only improve musically in ways that don't depend on technique. I know this is likely to be an unpopular assertion on a forum populated with lots of middle aged and old guys, but I suspect the *very very few* middle aged players on this forum who *demonstrably* have great chops and can play jazz well already had that ability by their early 20s. In particular, except for teenaged beginners, I don't think focusing on picking technique is likely to make much difference on how they sound in the long run.

Haha thanks for letting me know Pkirk! Good to know I can throw those picking exercises out of the window! Seriously, I think I know what you mean. My technique is probably pretty fixed now, most of my improvement is in playing better 'aesthetically' I think. I wouldn't try and change my picking style now, it would just go horribly wrong.

Mind you, I have been working a bit on speed recently and it seems I can push my speed 'comfort tempo' up a bit by just gradually increasing every few days (e.g. crank the tempo up a few notches in BIAB or something). So maybe the old dog is good for a few more miles yet! Probably I've never bothered much about speed before.

[grahambop]

I still find it very surprising that so many put so much thought into a picking method/technique. It just occurs as an "auto pilot" function for me. I'm thinking it's more for reading than for blowing? When I was reading, I did actually think about how I might want to pick when having to skip strings. But, even then, I'd try it once both ways, then, I'd pretty much know what I wanted to do. I was never really into correctness with my right hand. I just simply "told" might right hand what I wanted it to do . . and it did it. (that's something I've never been quite able to do with my wife . . but, I digress). The left hand/fingers is where I alway focused all of my efforts to perfect correctness in technique.

Yes that's very much the relationship I have with my right hand (if I may put it like that)!

[Vladan]

Play three notes on the e string, down up down, if your alternate picking you will go to the next string A with an upstroke. That is outside picking. "Easy" to do slow, "hard" to do fast.

Yes I will, but I don't see any problem with it. My question was not what is outside picking, but why is it considered somehow problematic?
Most likely i'm not fast enough to notice the difference.

[vintagelove]

Yes I will, but I don't see any problem with it. My question was not what is outside picking, but why is it considered somehow problematic?
Most likely i'm not fast enough to notice the difference.

Ok here is where it becomes a problem. Let's say you played three notes on the first string, then two notes on each of the next two strings. This is very awkward, ascending multiple strings with upstrokes. These are the little bumps in the road that trip people up when picking. Most don't really understand why they can't do it, they just assume they are bad pickers.

The whole point of excercises is to get the solutions to these "problems " into your subconscious so you can do them while improvising.

To to the last point about old dogs and new trick....

i think there is some truth to that. I'm not sure a late starter could alternate pick threes up to 160. If they were my student, I would get them up to 120 or so, then start exploring other methods. I do believe using pick/slur they could play pretty fast. Of course, if they are also beginning improvisers, it will be years before they can improvise at those tempos.

How much time do you have, what do you need to work the most.....

[Vladan]

Well, with due respect, that's the claim repeated, not an explanation.
What would be the better way to do it (while picking each note)?
I mean, I do not find it awkward. Maybe if I played faster, but I don't know for better than for what I do.

[pkirk]

Haha thanks for letting me know Pkirk! Good to know I can throw those picking exercises out of the window! Seriously, I think I know what you mean. My technique is probably pretty fixed now, most of my improvement is in playing better 'aesthetically' I think. I wouldn't try and change my picking style now, it would just go horribly wrong.

Mind you, I have been working a bit on speed recently and it seems I can push my speed 'comfort tempo' up a bit by just gradually increasing every few days (e.g. crank the tempo up a few notches in BIAB or something). So maybe the old dog is good for a few more miles yet! Probably I've never bothered much about speed before.

I'm not saying ignore picking exercises when you practice, just that in my experience, great chops *in jazz guitar* is just not something you can gradually move towards after a certain age. I think you *can* improve your time, groove, control, articulation, note placement within the beat. But speed....a lot of work will temporarily get you a little faster on your 5 or 6 pet uptempo licks, doesn't do much for everything else, and you lose most of it once stop focusing on it.

To be honest, the great majority of jazz guitar players who say they play fast tend to play the same small handful of licks over and over (how many of them play the old ascending major 9 arpeggio or the blues pentatonic lick, over and over.....). It makes me conclude that their speed is tied to the physical movement of a particular lick rather than speed being something they "have".

Grahambop, when you crank up the speed, does your choice of melodic material diminish correspondingly, or do you really feel like you have the same palate of melodic material available, just faster? For me, the faster the tempo, the less choice I have.

[vintagelove]

Well, with due respect, that's the claim repeated, not an explanation.
What would be the better way to do it (while picking each note)?
I mean, I do not find it awkward. Maybe if I played faster, but I don't know for better than for what I do.

I might economy pick the first string transfer

down,up,down (continued through the next note on the a string) down up, down up.


Essentially all the string changes on downstrokes.


I may also alternate pick or pick/slur depending on speed, where I'm coming from/going to, etc etc... Ideally you want to be able to do everything.

[Vladan]

Cool, but that is economy vs. alternate. BTW, to me, it's much more awkward to ecconomy pick than to alternate. Maybe if I practiced economy, but alternaate I don't have to practice, it's just there, not awkward at all.

Back to our original dicussion, outside vs. inside ...
if I started with an upstroke, it would be UDU on the first string and DU DU on the next 2, UDU DU DU in total,
whic is inside if I understood correctly, but I can not see, or feel any advantage in it over DUD UD UD (outside).

[mr. beaumont]

I find this pretty funny.

You have to be able to switch strings in both directions. Plain and simple. One does not have to devote their life to economy picking to be able to use the idea now and then.

This is why practicing actual musical examples (Try "Freight Trane" about 240) is so much more important than selecting a picking style and then looking for times when it will be a problem.

I'd venture a guess it was all just called "picking" until somebody wanted to start selling books and videos.

[vintagelove]

Cool, but that is economy vs. alternate. BTW, to me, it's much more awkward to ecconomy pick than to alternate. Maybe if I practiced economy, but alternaate I don't have to practice, it's just there, not awkward at all.

Back to our original dicussion, outside vs. inside ...
if I started with an upstroke, it would be UDU on the first string and DU DU on the next 2, UDU DU DU in total,
whic is inside if I understood correctly, but I can not see, or feel any advantage in it over DUD UD UD (outside).

You are correct, to the point about comfort, whatever you practice you will do well.

However, every picking technique has a speed limit. It's all individual, but if you hit a speed limit, it's worth giving another method a try.

The idea is you have to be able to do it all. The thing is, in real music, these techniques come up in very small increments, and in random orders. The idea behind practicing them is the they become ingrained/habit. Hopefully when you need them they come out without having to think about it.

[pamosmusic]

The idea is you have to be able to do it all. The thing is, in real music, these techniques come up in very small increments, and in random orders.

wooooooooooooooooorrrdddd

I actually am really digging this thing from the Downbeat article about co-opting drum rudiments but switching L-R for Up-Down. They did all the work for you. They've though of every conceivable combination already. I've just been coming up with little melodic fragments that employ the strings crossings in the right spots for the different rudiments and taking them through keys on all my string sets. Really cool stuff.

[Patrick2]

You are correct, to the point about comfort, whatever you practice you will do well.

However, every picking technique has a speed limit. It's all individual, but if you hit a speed limit, it's worth giving another method a try.

The idea is you have to be able to do it all. The thing is, in real music, these techniques come up in very small increments, and in random orders. The idea behind practicing them is the they become ingrained/habit. Hopefully when you need them they come out without having to think about it.

I think this best describes my "auto pilot" analogy. I've practiced very strict alternate picking, ad nauseam while doing diatonic scales for an hour a day 30 years ago. I'd also sometimes start the scale with an up stroke on the root, instead of a down stroke when ascending and then come back down the same way. I'd do the scales in straight eighth notes, trips, sixteenths. Then I'd mix the time values within the same scale runs . . all very strict time kept with a metronone. Then practiced economy when shedding arps. Combined both when studying reading . . . and there was the grip it and rip it combination of all the above combined with slurs and ornamentations, when playing funk, R&B and rock covers. I'm pretty sure that's why I never even bother thinking about my right hand technique. It's there for me when ever I call it up subconsciously . . . or in the case of strick alternate picking, consciously.

Hmmm . . . so all of those boring scales weren't a total waste of my time after all. That's nice to know.

[fumblefingers]

If something is out of your technical realm of experience your ear is going to be hard-pressed to hear it.

I'm just saying that you won't hear something that's completely out of the realm of your technical experience. You won't really hear lines that you don't have a concept of how to execute.

are you serious?

[pamosmusic]

are you serious?

um ... yes?

you?

[Patrick2]

pamo . . I'd also like a bit of further explanation on not being able to hear lines that you can't execute. If you're a guitar player . . how would it be possible to not be able to play a line you hear . . . whether it's a line you hear in your head as you're playing . . or a line that someone else has done? How is it possible to know and understand how to play guitar without having any concept of how to execute something you hear? Either me and ff are misinterpretting what you say . . or there is further explanation of it.

[pkirk]

wooooooooooooooooorrrdddd

I actually am really digging this thing from the Downbeat article about co-opting drum rudiments but switching L-R for Up-Down. They did all the work for you. They've though of every conceivable combination already. I've just been coming up with little melodic fragments that employ the strings crossings in the right spots for the different rudiments and taking them through keys on all my string sets. Really cool stuff.

Yep, I got that same classic drum rudiments book. and have been using it in a more rudimentary (excuse the pun) way:

just playing the line on one string, and then using the pattern itself to define the string motion via "economy picking", so e.g.
the rudiment (all 8th notes)

RLRL RRRR (really DUDU DDDD )

turns into (open strings) AAAA ADGB

SO each rudiment has a *built in* economy picking exercise.

But I actually like the 1 string version better, it feels like playing congas: the difference in timbre between up and downstrokes gives it that vibe.

Haven't used it melodically yet. I suppose the next thing to do would be to take a melodic fragment with the same number of notes and pick it according to the rudiment. But that can be pretty confusing if the picking direction is untreated to the string switching direction.

[fumblefingers]

time to go back to ear training class, Pamo.

and don't ever think about becoming a composer or arranger of a piece of music that involves any instrument that you can't play at a virtuoso level.

i'm no great player or composer, but i can hear bombastic sax lines, especially after listening to some music. i remember Pat Martino talking about a line/lick that he wanted to get into his vocab. he said that he needed about six months to get it nailed. but according to you, it works 180 degrees the other way.

why do we always advise developing jazzers, and indeed all musicians, to "listen to a lot of music" anyway? what's the point? by your definition one has to play everything before they can hear it.

that is a fallacy.

[pamosmusic]

pamo . . I'd also like a bit of further explanation on not being able to hear lines that you can't execute. If you're a guitar player . . how would it be possible to not be able to play a line you hear . . . whether it's a line you hear in your head as you're playing . . or a line that someone else has done? How is it possible to know and understand how to play guitar without having any concept of how to execute something you hear? Either me and ff are misinterpretting what you say . . or there is further explanation of it.

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking ... I can try to explain what I mean a little better though.

All I mean ... is that it's a two way street. When you're improvising stuff your hands and your ears are intertwined. I don't think you have this bank of sounds in your ear and this bar of technique and you spit out all these wonderful ideas accordingly. I think spending serious practice time with ideas and with particular aspects of your technique opens your ears up a lot. You can sit at a piano and drill your ear to hear a lot of complicated subs (and yes - you'd be better for it of course) and learn a bunch of tunes but when you sit down with a guitar your technical limitations are going to determine how you give voice to all those harmonic ideas. I think if you're doing it right your ear will always be a couple steps ahead of your technique ... I think it should be and all the guys that I really love listening to give me that impression. But you're not going to hear lines that are worlds ahead of what you can conceive of on the instrument. I listen to Coltrane all the freaking time but I don't hear these sweeping beautiful tenor lines in my head when I'm playing a tune. They're technically too far out there. I don't have a concept of what they look like on guitar or feel like on the guitar and I haven't spent tons of time figure out how to adapt my technique to be able to execute them. So my brain doesn't really consider them a possibility. Five years ago I know that I wasn't hearing lines like I do now. I've spent so much time with bebop tunes learning how to execute some of the "isms" and transcribing some solos and working on chops and stuff that I've added a huge amount vocabulary. I don't think just listening to bebop and warming up on scales from time to time without paying attention to the technical finer points would've gotten me there.

That's why I do a slight raise of the eyebrow at the ole "I don't work on all this scale and arpeggio and picking and junk - I just work on tunes man" line ******* ...



******* I am in no way accusing you of having said or implied that. You just mentioned that you let your picking sort of do it's thing ... that's why I brought this up. You later explained that you put a lot of time into it in the past so it's on autopilot now. Way cool. This is a hypothetical at this point - it's my case for why actually focusing on the minute pick control stuff is important.

[pamosmusic]

and don't ever think about becoming a composer or arranger of a piece of music that involves any instrument that you can't play at a virtuoso level.

ok. Just FYI I did try to clarify a couple times that I was talking about when one improvises. That's okay though.

[pamosmusic]

Yep, I got that same classic drum rudiments book. and have been using it in a more rudimentary (excuse the pun) way:

just playing the line on one string, and then using the pattern itself to define the string motion via "economy picking", so e.g.
the rudiment (all 8th notes)

RLRL RRRR (really DUDU DDDD )

turns into (open strings) AAAA ADGB

SO each rudiment has a *built in* economy picking exercise.

But I actually like the 1 string version better, it feels like playing congas: the difference in timbre between up and downstrokes gives it that vibe.

Haven't used it melodically yet. I suppose the next thing to do would be to take a melodic fragment with the same number of notes and pick it according to the rudiment. But that can be pretty confusing if the picking direction is untreated to the string switching direction.

Yea I've been using it melodically but I've spent the last four or five days all on the same one (RR LL RR LL) so I'm not burning through this junk by any stretch. It's really tricky - especially getting into some of the paradiddles and things. I've looked at them and tried to get a handle on some little fragments that might work but haven't tried playing them yet.

[Vladan]

You are correct, to the point about comfort, whatever you practice you will do well.

However, every picking technique has a speed limit. It's all individual, but if you hit a speed limit, it's worth giving another method a try.

The idea is you have to be able to do it all. The thing is, in real music, these techniques come up in very small increments, and in random orders. The idea behind practicing them is the they become ingrained/habit. Hopefully when you need them they come out without having to think about it.

Vintagelove, you are full of good advice to share and you can play fast, no doubt, I've heard you play. I believe you speak from experience. However you still did not answer my question. Not that you have to, it's just odd to me you claim something then strictly avoid to explain. Maybe we just do not understand each other?

You said, some famous players used economy picking so to avoid outside picking. My question is, why they avoid only "outside", why is "inside" somehow better, so they do not have to avoid it? As far as I can play it is exactly the same. Economy is more economical compared to either. In all your posts you were explaining the advantage of economy vs. alternate, which I have nothing to add to, or ask about, still the issue of "inside" being better than "outside" remains unanswered.

I won't push this subject any more.

[grahambop]

I'm not saying ignore picking exercises when you practice, just that in my experience, great chops *in jazz guitar* is just not something you can gradually move towards after a certain age. I think you *can* improve your time, groove, control, articulation, note placement within the beat. But speed....a lot of work will temporarily get you a little faster on your 5 or 6 pet uptempo licks, doesn't do much for everything else, and you lose most of it once stop focusing on it.

To be honest, the great majority of jazz guitar players who say they play fast tend to play the same small handful of licks over and over (how many of them play the old ascending major 9 arpeggio or the blues pentatonic lick, over and over.....). It makes me conclude that their speed is tied to the physical movement of a particular lick rather than speed being something they "have".

Grahambop, when you crank up the speed, does your choice of melodic material diminish correspondingly, or do you really feel like you have the same palate of melodic material available, just faster? For me, the faster the tempo, the less choice I have.

I think the choices do diminish, but I guess I would be happy enough just being able to play enough 'favourite licks' or something at speed just to get through a solo adequately. I'm really a medium tempo guy - that's where my time feels best and I can 'think' a bit to come up with more improvised lines as I play.