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Carol' s or similar Teaching, my interpretation:
Basic Learning: Pro Jazz Licks, on the surface assuming one can read and play the licks, many find they are easy, there is a reason for that. When played being played individually they are just sort one tool out of the tool box. Depending on ones level of under standing even the most basic number C number one lick in the book is invaluable , especially if you are soloing and your self in a box and need to get your way out during a complex solo spot.
From the entry level players point of view, learning to:
Pro Jazz Book ( any similar book can also be used
1) Memorize a basic good sounding lick till you know it to muscle memory (learned to muscle memory the wrong way is a disaster from the start)
2) learn to play how to play it in time, its different playing in time over and over in your practice environment versus when playing in group or performance setting. Playing at home 8 times in a row at a tempo of 80 is meaningless in way of even performing it once right during group performance. Why playing it 100 times in a row at home and you should eventually apply it correct in a practical way when performing and when performance timing and key changes may apply on the fly!
3) how to to pick it correctly, if this is not done right Item 2 never works.
4) what fingers work best, using the wrong fingering can set back one back years in playing experience, same comment as 3
2) Learning how to play it through the whole chordal scale correctly
3) How the path of the lick fits best and how it applied when play against different chords in 2-5-1 context (also taking the simple lick and taking just pieces of it and treating like a like inself is invaluable)
4) How to play it in in time transitioning through out a chord changes, most difficult using the the cycle with it (more advanced. On note of hint, practicing chords changes can be done similar as Items 1 - 5.
Many more things, and this is just the basic lick.
Intermediate level - I say this it this can be advanced. I have read in various threads comments on Joe Pass Guitar Style Book and this is my point of reference form that. This an interpretation in writing of what Joe Played, not how he learned. This gives one an understanding of his pattern process.
Several basics of why Carol teaches from this book even after about a year with a starter in form.
1) It begins to see if you are up to the task of eventually incorporating this into your playing.
2) With this book as with other (1,000s) similar, knowing what exercises to concentrate is critical
3) Know what fingers to use correctly for the passages is a must , with out this it is even difficult to get pass any level.
4) for starters it a perfect start to learning how to read, phrase and pick in time.
5) it is a great practice in reading and rhythm at any level, just start with one measure until you have in muscle memory, its sort of a Jazz Pro licks book with 1,000s of exercises.
On a note of hint the chord changes practiced like 1-5 works wonders!
More on this in the future.
Have fun is the most important element, what I have found from 30 + years of hit or miss, find some basics and learn them well and once learned well , begin to start over this basic lick/chord again and again, same basics and relearn them to the next level. Continuing to jump from one resource or next lick/chord to the next, before mastering it (!) is one way to work your way to frustration.
Taking a simple lick and analyzing why it works and sounds good in the practical use and connecting that to the chord of the song is critical. Learning the melody along can only limit your process, as the actual task of improvisation requires a good understanding of how the notes you are playing fit into the chord melody. Other instrument which emphasize only a single line are taught from a different approach, e.g. scale form for instance versus chord form.Last edited by rennurx; 02-08-2015 at 09:43 AM.
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02-08-2015 09:34 AM
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02-08-2015, 10:07 AM #27destinytot GuestThanks very much for posting this.
Originally Posted by rennurx
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I know that first lick. (For those unfamiliar with Carol's book, that first lick is a triad with leading tones: BCCC, D#EEE F#GGG....) Sheryl Bailey goes over this lick in her DVD "50 Bebop Licks You Must Know." Sheryl places a lot of emphasis on triads and the many ways in which they may be played (approached from above, from below, chromatically / diatonically) It's another reminder of how solid a foundation Carol Kaye lays for students. As you say, some of the licks are easy to play, but knowing when, where, and how to use them is something else. Originally Posted by rennurx
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Thanks' all for the participation, information, comments!
One thing that is significantly important, not easily understood, or ignored as meaningless.
Where to play the downbeats,
Why is this important...Well what happens whenever we try to do anything out of sink. This was discovered by my teacher, I playing along, and she say you not getting this because your flow is off (this means the picking direction needs to allow you hand to flow smooth during a passage).
Here is and idea from Carol's teaching see her for more. Alternating picking is a must for beginner/intermediate learners (maybe not necessarily already accomplished players as much? Does lingo sound familar or the way I right (no pun intended). Note alot of the phase key off of alternate picking to hit the chord tones in the line. This doesn't mean starting with an upstroke or using single directional picking is incorrect, it all matters. Just learning where in the line do the downbeats go.
As an exercise, its easy to practice alternating picking on 8th note measures its when the when the rhythm changes. One way to measure your success, is to have the pick direction correct at the beginning of the measure, in my case I am picking down at the beginning of the measure. If I am finding otherwise I read the rhythm incorrectly and this leads to bad flow and future problems. This probably has been the biggest thing for me to find out. Why does it take so long to learn a phase and more importantly apply it during the music.
There should be a zillion references on when to pick on the down and up beats. I personally don't do much single directional picking unless for special phasing.
Best Regards,Last edited by rennurx; 02-08-2015 at 08:26 PM.
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Practical application of down beat test.
Take two simple measures, one with 8 - 8th notes and one which is little more difficult say quarter note and 6 8th notes and repeat both measure. When you get back to the first measure your next pick direction would be downbeat. The test is , is your pick in the correct position to alternate down on the next measure, and then muscle memory this and then take on another more complicated rhythm. Also if tapping foot, for me critical. In my case I touch the floor on ever downbeat.
Answer, on the second measure the first two notes are played as downbeats. There is one ghosted upbeat to correct the time of the first quarter note played. Seem complicated, if so, this is one of the first lessons taught at the beginning of playing.
I learned this from my teacher!Last edited by rennurx; 02-08-2015 at 01:20 PM.
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Mark, Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Yes as described, as an idea spin of of this, you could take this lick and take the idea of the #9 lick on any of the first 4 pages and play the first lick by finishing with the Cmajor chord instead of the 7th note (last note in the lick); then take the same lick and play it in F finishing with Fmajor chord which occurs in the spot you end in instead again replacing the 7th note of lick (last note of the run) then play the chromatic (played in the prior lick) of the Cmajor lick back to the Chord played in the prior lick finishing with Cmajor. repeat this sequence using the cycle ...Also as the chord or appreggo played downbeat throughout all notes of the chord or alternated note of the chord (do this with awareness of what you intend on the stroke of the chord). Or easier, just play the lick over consecutively through the cycle until it becomes to easy and then evolve it to a different modification. Just more way to keep the mind excited to continue to practice basics.
Keep in mind the lick measure 1 works over Dm , measure 2 over G7 to resolve to the 7th of Cmajor 7th.
There for each measure can become and exercise in various permutations.
Here is taking a somewhat simple lick (sort of?) and making it an intermediate level exercise , complete the cycle and wala you now do know the simple lick, as well as alot of other things. Now on to the simple 2 nd lick .Last edited by rennurx; 02-08-2015 at 08:28 PM.
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Mark,
Another spin the idea, sticking with Lick #1:
Just take the first bar of Lick # 1 and run it through the cycle in the positions recommended for the cycle Lick # 9 last one on the first page of exercises. Once this well known understanding where the I chord is then recognize where the II chord in relation to the fingering while doing the cycle exercise. Then this same exercise can be applied to the other recommended finger positions for the cycle on pages 2,4,5.
Curious on your ideas of this since you have book?
Thanks,
Doing this made me realize how important knowing the cycle is for the standard songs. Carol has always said you must know cycle like being in school when we had to learn the mathematics tables. This one thing said which must absolutely be memorized, I am assuming to improv freely and get the finger talking jazz quickly.
This exercise as simple as it seem demonstrates to me how I can walk those single measure 8 notes to any where in the cycles noting that most jazz standard move in and off the cycle and back into it some where and being able to recognizing this on the chart quickly is important. Sort of like walking around with the chords or sounds chart.
Taking this exercise a next level would to first do it as the minor or change the 3rd of the run and then do the run as indicated, moving to F .... and on . minor /major key change minor / major key change etc.Last edited by rennurx; 02-09-2015 at 08:52 AM.
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BEGINNER LICK # 1. Here is a basic demonstration of Lick #1 @ 60 and then 120 beats. As simple as it seems there is a lot to be achieved by it. I think of it as a basic workout to see if I am hearing and feeling some basic elements. Note my pick is sounding off the fret board so this is not the timing it is an after effect (sorry).
Here is in part what I learned, just an exercise:
1: Its a 3 measure phrase
2: this phrase includes 8th, quarter, half and triplet note(s); very aware of the picking direction
3: It works well in II-V-I of Dm-G7-Cmaj and work over the 3 chords when played in time
4: Any of the notes works well in any combination played as a different phrasing
Last edited by rennurx; 03-01-2015 at 04:31 PM.
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BEGINNER SINGLE MEASURE PHASING EXERCISE:
This is a basic exercise to get the idea of phasing for during a solo. I found that I loss my place in a song when soloing. This exercise helped me understanding the flow. The demonstration plays each measure as one chord for one beat and phasing for 3 beats. At first I found it difficult getting it right. I first recognized I was still playing by memory and thou still getting loss. As soon as I followed the chord chart it worked. The phases are simple and thought up as done and there is no fixed same way. Not intended to be perfect as this an exercise.
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May I call you Ren?
Thanks for all this. Good examples.
As for the cycle, I knew it before but Carol taught me to know it much better. More fluidly, more musically. And also in more ways on the guitar neck. I've been working on running the 35Rb7 of dominant chords through the cycle. (Barry Greene has a short video on this; that's where I got the idea.) Then you do the same thing with 3b9Rb7. That's a lot trickier for me. It's easy enough to through the cycle once, but to do it 3-4 times takes effort. (For me, anyway.) But it really gets you to know your way around the fretboard.
May I ask about your picking? Your grip looks like the Benson grip. Is that something you were taught or something you started doing on your own?
I like that exercise in the last video. I hadn't thought of that. I'll give it a whirl this evening. Thanks!
The older I get (and the longer I play) the more I realize that you can never know the basics too well!
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Mark, Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
You can call Ren or Steve is good. Actually you got me back to that idea of picking which I knew about a while ago when you mentioned Sheryl Bailey in one of the threads, I saw what she was doing, remembered a teacher I had years ago talked about that angle approach and thought why not give a try. I am still working on it, I guess it looks like the Benson picking, I wasn't aware of the name. I am doing it more like I want to pick in the first video. I did go back and checked out the George Benson as well as others. I really like the Sheryl does it.
Yes, agree on your old quote, I am working my way from the beginning again as we speak.
Best Regards,
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Mark, Originally Posted by rennurx
Following up on your discussion on picking, the best description I have seen on this technique after you posed the question is Tuck Andrea (his website written description of this technique, very accurate, but no visual) and you are familiar most likely with JC Stylles Benson Picking (best video demonstration I have seen, $$). Most if not all other descriptions and videos I have seen are not as well presented, especially the youtube examples or self taught people. The best is to watch Benson on the Live 2013 Paris, even this does not give you enough information to reproduce what he is doing, without proper instruction. Interested if you have other examples? I have noted the picking angle changes depending on whether you need speed on single lines more perpendicular or more melodic feel less perpendicular and on strumming a whole something else depending on what part is begin played for the music. Watching Benson indicates how much he readjusted throughout some songs when the camera angle gives you the view.
Thank you for bringing it to my attention. Really no way to move forward without a good picking technique. I have begun some extensive review of this and have already seen significant benefits even after a couple days and hours of the attention redirected to be more precise.
Thank you again,
Steve
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Rodney Jones is the cat people go to, to learn Benson picking.
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Thank you!
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JC is a member here. He's posted some on the Benson picking thread. He's working on something new---haven't gotten too many details out of him so far---and when he lets me know more about it, I'll holler. I learned a good bit from it. Where I've wound up is a slightly different place but I wouldn't have reached it without the work I did on JC's tutorial. Originally Posted by rennurx
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Mark,
Thank you! Agree.
Steve
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I have spent a few days here looking at sheet 1 of the Pro's Phrases - Treble Clef book.
I actually found I had to go through each exercise and note the string and fingering for each note.
As I run through these, I keep wondering if there is a good place to go to find further information, about origin, perhaps descriptive name, and application of each exercise.
Is there something else available that I have missed?
Danielle
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Carol,
Carol makes reference to this book in her DVD on Jazz Guitar, other than that taking a private lesson from her would get her intentions for most of the information. Each phase does have a specific purpose, general key II V I line, turnaround and ending. Once the phases become second nature, then soloing eventually becomes natural using pieces of the phases reconstructed based on your style.
Carol also teaches learning phases in multiple locations and tieing them together.
Practical application using easier standards such as Autumn Leaves, Satin Doll and Blue Bossa is what she uses to show how the phases are used in whole or part.
Best Regards,
Steve
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Its been awhile since I posted on this thread.
note from a beginners perspective. Taking CKs training, here is an example of learning a basic song and applying the training tools offered by CK. Noting CK has a new beginner reading book for guitar , which has actually helped, as I didn't realize what basics I had missed.
Here is an example of wine and roses applying the basics of timing, with various other CK teachings.
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Nice, Steve. Thanks.
Could you say more about Carol's reading book? I haven't heard about it.
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Mark,
Carol's reading book is similar to the one she did for bass except its for guitar. Its a beginners reading book , with an CD (the CD shall be available this week or sometime this month). I originally learned to play pop, rock and folk music by ear from records. The book starts with basics music lessons as most books at this level, demonstrates the basic rhythms and them has reading exercises in the critical keys for jazz players. This book would be to difficult for tab reader person, better for a you young beginner or a serious adult beginner who wants to become a more rounded player by reading, certainly has opened up a who world, I hate tabs they are like breaks (blinders) to the learning process.
Historically I have been able to read very slowly, or I thought. What I didn;t have down was the rhythm part of the reading, I was interpreting the notes on the sheet and playing the rhythm by ear, thats what has changed by using this basic book. Sort of reprograming to the basic read the rhythms not play them by ear. By doing this there is not so much memorization. In addition once the rhythm (critical ones) are learned correctly in time as marked on sheet these start to become internalized correctly. Its tough stuff to learn even from a real basic jazz reading study like Carol has put out.
Long story short, I was having trouble learning Joe Pass work book exercises because of my inability to read the rhythms, I could figure the notes out, but in difficult passages one must know how to read if you are studying at a Pass or Benson level. I shall post some of Joe Pass Guitar Style book examples I am working on in the next couple of days to demonstrate.
Best Regards,
Steve
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Thanks, Steve. I'm going to order this later today. I can read but not as well as I need to. Originally Posted by rennurx
As for tab, here's another problem with it (-but you have to get a little older to realize it): it's hard to read! My eyesight is not the best. I have no problem with regular print in books or the newspaper----with words, generally---but it is easy for me to be unsure of numbers(-is that a 3 or 8? a 2 or a 5?) On old things that I learned via tab, I have to write the numbers above the tab in pencil so that I can see what they are. In doing this, I realized, "I never have any problem seeing the musical notes. They are actually much easier to read---that is, for my eyes and brain to know what is indicated by that sign. Who'lda thunk it?"
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Mark,
Great, maybe we could start a thread and post each exercise as we accomplish it. This may motivate others having similar interests. Some of the exercises are a bit dry and having others involved in the process and demonstrating progress can be good thing. Let me know what you think. There are 26 pages. Once you get the book, demonstrating from page 12 on would be good so 15 pages to master. The first several page before this are ultra critical to setting up doing from page 12 on.
What I am benefiting the most from the book is learning to read the rhythm.
Best Regards,
Steve
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That could work. I just ordered the book from Carol's site. I needed a change of pace this month and it looks like this will be it. (I don't expect to finish the book in a month; rather, I need a break from what I've been doing and this is something I need to improve upon, so it's a great time for me to work on this material.) I'll let you know when I get it. Originally Posted by rennurx
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Mark,
As far as the study group there would be no time table, contribute as you have time for the exercises you have interest in.
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