The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudi
    Totally agreed. The modes simply are 7 tonalities but they all have the same root.
    You have it backwards, this can be confusing. The modes are 7 scales that share the same key signautre BUT they each have seperate roots. D dorian, G mixo, F lydian, B locrian all have different roots BUT they all share the same tonailty OR key signature which is C major.
    D dorian is a minor mode (scale) as is D phrygian and D aeolian. All three share the same root which is D. However D phrygian comes from Bb major and D aeolian comes from F major...all three have different tonal centers or key signatures.
    Happy 2009

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  3. #27

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    Hi, Rob!
    There's a post of mine above with a chart of the modes in intervals I elaborated and Matt gave me his approval. Once I know the intervals then it's easy to know the notes in each mode.

    By now I'm sticking with it.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robjzgtr
    You have it backwards, this can be confusing. The modes are 7 scales that share the same key signautre BUT they each have seperate roots. D dorian, G mixo, F lydian, B locrian all have different roots BUT they all share the same tonailty OR key signature which is C major.
    D dorian is a minor mode (scale) as is D phrygian and D aeolian. All three share the same root which is D. However D phrygian comes from Bb major and D aeolian comes from F major...all three have different tonal centers or key signatures.
    Happy 2009
    the first part of your post is totally right, but you're saying the same thing as him on your 2nd paragraph.

    D Ionian, D Dorian, D Phrygian, D Lydian, D Mixolydian, D Aeolian and D Locrian are (as he said) 7 different tonalities that share the same root or (as you said) they share the same root but have different tonal centers or key signatures.

    if they share the same key signature or tonal center, their roots will be a different degree of the same major scale. if they share the same root, they'll have different tonal centers or key signatures.

    you both are right and i'm not getting confused over this now

  5. #29

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    Stick with Robjzgtrs explanation, it is the only correct way to look at it.

    Sailor

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor
    Stick with Robjzgtrs explanation, it is the only correct way to look at it.

    Sailor

    it's the same thing, just worded (or phrased, if you will) differently...

  7. #31

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    Gabe2099, is right. Both are the same thing.
    You can learn it with notation or you can learn its intervals. I believe that in the end of it we'll master both ways. It's a matter of time.

    When I play the piano I don't look at it by its intervals since in this instrument every key you play you immediately know what note you're playing.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe2099
    you both are right and i'm not getting confused over this now
    I'm glad that you now understand the modes.

  9. #33

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    I looked at Claudi's formula's and I see his line of thought and it makes sense. We're looking at the same thing from different angles so we describe it differently. As long as it works, it's OK.
    Have a great 2009 everyone!

  10. #34

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    gabe 2099 modes are major scales played in different positions--for example starting the c scale on the 6th string 8th fret is the c major scale moving the same scale down 2 to the 6th frets it is b flat major but b flat major scale and the c dorean are the same scale,in other words all modes are major scales played on different frets once you learn all the modes and all major scale position you will see it i .know its difficult there is no written info on this part of music theory. play a d scale on the 5th fret starting on the 5th string a different major scale position move it down 2 frets to the 3rd fret and you are playing a d dorean scale remember all the modes are nothing more than major scales played on different frets to start learn all your e major scales in every positin up the neck jimmy

  11. #35

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    I like to play all the modes, (and ARPS), in one position to start. Rather than slide around to different frets, try the 8th fret, low E string pinky position for C major and then just start on the 5th string, 5th fret, index for Dorian, 5th string, 7th fret, ring finger Lydian, etc....

    Just one way of many.

    Sailor

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor
    I like to play all the modes, (and ARPS),

    Sailor
    ARPS: Advanced Reticulated Polytonal System

  13. #37

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    ARPS - arpeggios

    Sailor

  14. #38

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    ARPS are also some really cool synthesizers that herbie once favored.

    not to be confused with the AARP.


    so now that we're on page two of trying to understand modes, will everybody just do the world a favor and LEARN THE MAJOR SCALE INSIDE OUT before playing around with the friggin' modes! it's like somebody put a little bug in every players ear that said "you'll never be a real player until you learn the modes!"

    there's cool sounds in there, but i think for starters, understanding what major scale they come from is much more important than memorizing a bunch of new hand shapes...

    i'll admit, i'm not a scale thinker, but when i want say, an F lydian sound, it's much easier for me to think C major and simply pay attention to what the important notes in the F lydian are!

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    ARPS are also some really cool synthesizers that herbie once favored.

    not to be confused with the AARP.


    so now that we're on page two of trying to understand modes, will everybody just do the world a favor and LEARN THE MAJOR SCALE INSIDE OUT before playing around with the friggin' modes! it's like somebody put a little bug in every players ear that said "you'll never be a real player until you learn the modes!"

    there's cool sounds in there, but i think for starters, understanding what major scale they come from is much more important than memorizing a bunch of new hand shapes...

    i'll admit, i'm not a scale thinker, but when i want say, an F lydian sound, it's much easier for me to think C major and simply pay attention to what the important notes in the F lydian are!
    While I wouldn't argue with this in the least, especially the last paragraph, I do think it underscores exactly why looking at the modes as scales as opposed to derivations of the major scale is the best way for a novice to approach them.

    I didn't know all the positions of the major scale when I started using the modes to improvise, yet I was able to use them effectively to make more interesting lines because I used them in the context of a scale that was related to a chord voicing or arpeggio...oops, I mean ARP.

    Essentially, I learned the patterns for the major scale at the same time I was learning the modes.

    I'm a big "bring it all along together" guy. I think it increases your chance of making real music faster, especially improvised/original music. BUT, it certainly can lead to bad habits and faulty understanding of things, I'll concede. But eventually if you are persistent, it all falls into place anyway.

    Over time, however, my reliance on scales gets less and less. I am increasingly fusing it all together into essentially the chromatic scale from which I target specific notes/intervals I know will sound "good" (at least to me) over a particular chord.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robjzgtr
    I looked at Claudi's formula's and I see his line of thought and it makes sense. We're looking at the same thing from different angles so we describe it differently. As long as it works, it's OK.
    Have a great 2009 everyone!
    Of course it makes sense!!!
    No, now serious. I'm happy you got my point of view.
    I told you yesterday that on guitar I see it by its intervals, but it's because the guitar is so symetrical that for me it's easier this way. When I play the scales on my piano then I think of notes because I don't find it symetrical. Having the keys in 2 different colours makes me look at the scales by the route I have to follow this means remember which black notes I have to play in every key signature. It's a visual thing.
    Rob, you say that we're looking at the same thing from different angles but I repeat that in the end we'll have to see it in both angles. In theory we're talking about the scales and chords by their note names and by intervals.

    Happy New Year to everyone and take care!

  17. #41

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    Mr. Beaumont, my constant point exactly!! As a music ed. guy, we played all instruments,(basic), sang in chorus, sight sang, ear trained, on and on....

    The main point being, knowing your key signatures is THE key to a lot of questions and confusion with many threads. I don't have to think about the notes in F, or any mode derived, they all have Bb's in them! In D all F's and C's are sharped!

    I am learning some shapes now, sometimes jazz moves fast, but I think it's better to know the notes!!! I'm so tired of patterns that only apply to the guitar. I don't like TABS either. Do you have a acronym for TABS?????????

    Sailor

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    it's like somebody put a little bug in every players ear that said "you'll never be a real player until you learn the modes!"

    i'll admit, i'm not a scale thinker, but when i want say, an F lydian sound, it's much easier for me to think C major and simply pay attention to what the important notes in the F lydian are!
    Yeah! This is a point I wanted to comment since some time ago and now it's the right moment. For many months I've read the most advanced jazz guitar players or at least the ones who master the modes in this forum say that modes are not so important and people shouldn't pay too much attention to them but then I think that everyone who says this knows perfectly how the modes work.

    Mr. B, you say you're not a scale thinker but when you want an F lydian sound you know it's C major, and therefore you know all the modes for every note. I think it's much more a matter of understanding the modes, taste them and see them in all angles and interiorize them. After that we can forget the theory because having interiorized them they will come out from our fingers automatically. Don't you think?

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor
    I think it's better to know the notes!!! I'm so tired of patterns that only apply to the guitar. I don't like TABS either. Do you have a acronym for TABS?????????

    Sailor
    I think we have to learn both notes and intervals. I'm also tired of patterns and that's why for the past 3 months or so I stopped learning them. Now I prefer to look for all the chord notes by myself. By now I do it by searching the intervals because anywhere you're in the fretboard the intervals are at the same distance from the root of the chord you're playing.

    Now I see the patterns and TABS as a tool for starting playing the guitar.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goofsus4
    Essentially, I learned the patterns for the major scale at the same time I was learning the modes.

    I'm a big "bring it all along together" guy. I think it increases your chance of making real music faster, especially improvised/original music. BUT, it certainly can lead to bad habits and faulty understanding of things, I'll concede. But eventually if you are persistent, it all falls into place anyway.

    Over time, however, my reliance on scales gets less and less. I am increasingly fusing it all together into essentially the chromatic scale from which I target specific notes/intervals I know will sound "good" (at least to me) over a particular chord.
    that's me, basically.

    the posts in the first page helped me big time, now i don't find the modes a challenge, just something else to work on.

    and about the patterns, i don't like them either. they can "box" you in a spot if you're not careful, but they're a necessary evil. i read somewhere (maybe it was right here in this forum) that the goal is to practice the patterns and chords given in any shape and learn it until they become second nature and you don't have to think about it.

    since i started with guitar first and i'm teaching myself, i find it much easier to learn at least 1 pattern for each scale or mode or arpeggio or chord and analyze it, sing the notes i'm playing and understand it. by the time i'm done with that 1 pattern, i can very well come up with other patterns myself until i don't even need patterns and just know the intervals (and specific notes) that make up each different scale, then it's easier to play anywhere on the neck.

    i have to admit i had very bad habits, but i've been slowly getting out of those. and, i'll say it again, this forum (and the lessons on the site) has helped me tremendously.

  21. #45

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    People, you're making this harder than it has to be.

    The diatonic modal scales are simply different 'inversions' of the major scale, starting from different notes.

    Also, if you can play a two octave major scale, you're already playing the modes.

    And this begs the question;
    If you are in the middle of a two octave major scale, what mode are you in?

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudi
    Yeah! This is a point I wanted to comment since some time ago and now it's the right moment. For many months I've read the most advanced jazz guitar players or at least the ones who master the modes in this forum say that modes are not so important and people shouldn't pay too much attention to them but then I think that everyone who says this knows perfectly how the modes work.

    Mr. B, you say you're not a scale thinker but when you want an F lydian sound you know it's C major, and therefore you know all the modes for every note. I think it's much more a matter of understanding the modes, taste them and see them in all angles and interiorize them. After that we can forget the theory because having interiorized them they will come out from our fingers automatically. Don't you think?
    no, i still think. but you can't do too much thinking, or the changes will pass you by...also, too much thinking tends to lends itself to "mechanical" sounding change running, where folks are thinking about options and not about continuing a melodic line.

    i know my major scales. i can recite 'em in my sleep, and i can play you a major scale starting from any note on the fretboard. i also know my fretboard, and i can tell you without hesitation what note is at any fret. these were big things for me to learn that took years to get down, but they've helped my playing more than just about anything else!

    because i know my major scale, i know my modes too. they are worth knowing, but they're not a secret elixer, some kind of magic that makes you a better player. in fact, until you start superimposing some of them over chords, they're pretty vanilla. but my brain cannot contain or handle 72 more fingerings, and multiple positions of each--so i understand their function and where they come from, and the important notes in each. but when i'm playing and the fretboard is sort of "lighting up" with possibilities, i view them as coming from their parent major scale--for the most part.

    some of the modes are pretty useful. the dorian, for example, would be a much better choice over a m7 chord than a natural minor scale. when i see a m7 chord my brain thinks m7 arpeggio first, but because i know the dorian mode, i also know the 6 (and maybe not the b6) is a cool note to play around with. we could look at this as "dorian" thinking, but i'm not seeing it that way.

    in the end, they're all just roadmaps. your job as an improvisor is to create an interesting line, and whatever helps you get to that is the right way of thinking for you. i don't as much advocate not learning modes as i do knowing and understanding the major scale first. the WHY will always be more beneficial than the HOW. people want shortcuts. there are none.

  23. #47

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    hey mr. beaumont,

    i think everyone here would agree with you, the modes are not some sort of magic potion that will turn you into a modern day Beethoven in the blink of an eye. i don't think they are but (after reading the OP for the umpteenth time) i why one would think i was a beginner trying to run before learning to walk.

    i know my basics, plus some advanced stuff that i have read randomly . i would call myself an intermediate player, i know my basics and am trying to tie everything together so i can get to the point where i too can just hear a chord and improvise without analyzing too much or advanced player territory (in my opinion).

    simply put, i know the HOW and i'm now trying to understand the WHY, so that when i play i'm not thinking about the WHAT or the WHERE.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    no, i still think. but you can't do too much thinking, or the changes will pass you by...also, too much thinking tends to lends itself to "mechanical" sounding change running.

    i know my major scales. i also know my fretboard, these were big things for me to learn that took years to get down, but they've helped my playing more than just about anything else!
    because i know my major scale, i know my modes too. they are worth knowing, but they're not a secret elixer, some kind of magic that makes you a better player.

    your job as an improvisor is to create an interesting line, and whatever helps you get to that is the right way of thinking for you. i don't as much advocate not learning modes as i do knowing and understanding the major scale first. the WHY will always be more beneficial than the HOW. people want shortcuts. there are none.
    Totally agreed on the first paragraph of yours that I've quoted. But you say that learning the scales (and their modes) and the fretboard helped your playing a lot. You say that because you know your major scale you know your modes, and I understand they're not a secret elixer for being a good guitarrist but I think they make you a better player than before you knew them because therefore you have more options to choose that can help you creat interesting lines as an improvisor. I know people tend to want shortcuts but understanding the HOW and the WHY come altogether, after that you can forget the theory and put everything into practice.

  25. #49

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    Sorry!, I forgot to finish my post.
    After having read all you say then I don't understand why people insist to say that the modes are not that important. You all know the modes, but I understand that after many years you master them so much that you don't need to think too much about them.
    it's like if I say to someone that learning to read music is not that important. Well, that depends. Depends on the guitarrist and for being able to play more music.
    It's like if I say to someone that ternarian rhythms are not important because all the rock, blues, metal, pop music don't use these rhythms...or very very scarcely.

    I think that modes are part of the music theory, even in conservatoires, and it's good to know them. They're a tool to understand what you're playing from another musician.
    I've read a lot of posts from Matt where he says what scale and mode you have to play when someone wants to know what he can play in a given chord progression.

    Just my thought.

  26. #50

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    gabe the only reason i assumed you were a beginner as far as theory goes is because you said so in your OP! i hope my previous posts didn't come off as talking down to ya--but i strongly believe that the modes should be off limits until the major scale is mastered. that's the way i teach my students.

    claudi, i think we're talking about two different things in a way. i am in no way against accumulating knowledge that can be stored and fired upon at will while in the heat of improvisation. but i AM against rote memorization of numerous patterns when the modes themselves can be simplified, either by viewing them from the parent scale or by focusing specifically on the alterations that make them unique like mw78 i believe, suggested.

    really what it comes down to is when i read the initial post, i heard a question being asked by someone who said he was a beginner as far as theory went, and i do not consider the modes to be beginner theory. they trip a lot of folks up, so i say, forget about them until you have a real handle on the basics.

    i guess that's what lead to my mode rant...