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The second semester starts. Onward to new positions.
That chord etude, that's got a lot of chords. You might want to start practicing that one right away.
Cheers
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05-14-2012 12:18 PM
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Like this?
PS - If anyone can give me guidance on embedding videos, I'd be grateful. I get that I need to log out of my account, just once I've logged out, I then can't find the video. Catch 22. I hope you can see the video above.
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Hey Laura,thats great you really are an example to us all.I just wanted to say thank you for helping me decide to continue with the method.I think i was just going through one of those times when we feel we are not progressing and are on a plateau ,I should have learned to recognise these times by now,but thats just me.Thanks once again and peace.
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Thanks ginger. These chord etudes make it all worthwhile.
All of it.
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Hey Laura - that's GREAT. I could never stand there in a thousand years and play straight through that stuff. And even that lo-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-ong chord etude! I suppose your piano playing has helped you in reading chords, clusters of notes all at once -- we guitar players sometimes run screaming at the sight of so many chords. We want block diagrams, please.
Originally Posted by ten left thumbs
Wonderful playing. I think you've come farther, faster, than anybody I've seen. Your right hand technique is sounding really nice, and no bobbles from the left, really, either.
I'm very proud of you - keep it up!
kj
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Originally Posted by ten left thumbs
Yes just like that. Your hard work is paying off. Very impressive to play all that through at one time.
I don't have to log out to embed videos. I use the address in the top bar of the browser and it works just fine. It'a the same address whether I'm logged in or not.
Go look at your video, it's this address that you want (without the spaces that I added so you can see it):
http :// [url]www . youtube. com/watch?v=Tx1amCj8JdM
Last edited by fep; 05-15-2012 at 05:50 PM.
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Following TLT's lead, I recorded several on one take. Didn't try page 62 though, that needs some practice.
Here it is, with some obvious mistakes.
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Thanks guys, you can tell from my smile at the end I'm pleased with myself. There were mistakes. But - I must confess this is not the work of a few days. I've been working on this since February, and it has been really, incredibly hard going. I'm struggling to think of anything I've done musically that has been this hard. Fortunately the material here is wonderful to play, imo.
I had a constant ache in my left hand for about two months, that has now gone. That was from the chord etudes and the gymnastics the fingers need to do. I've also been having pain in my right shoulder, from bending over the guitar and trying to reach the strings. I'm having physio for this and have had to take a real huge dip in practice time, as well as adjust my posture - standing is painfree but I'm limited to about 20-30 min. Osteopath says I need a smaller guitar.
I'd like to hear how other people find the adjustment from open to 2nd position. I worked hard on the first half of the book; lately I've been working hard on the 2nd half, and I've found it difficult to go back and review material in open. First, I don't get that stretch I've got used to (and I really feel I need). Second, open strings confuse me! When I play a note without my left hand being involved, I lose track of where my fingers are. I often pick it wrong. My hands have this thing of communicating among themselves where they are and where they need to be, and for my left hand to disconnect from the fretboard is disorienting for me. Then it has to get back in the right place for the next note. I appreciate Part 1, but I don't miss open, and given the choice, I won't use those notes, except when I need to go low.
How do others find this position?
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That's very musical Frank, and you did it at quite a clip with the metronome. You breeze through the mistakes with ultimate professionalism (in case anyone's wondering, no sarcasm here, that is exactly how to make a mistake) - just wondering if you know where they are or would you like me to point them out? Originally Posted by fep
I notice also you go for the 'sensible' F. I'll tell you what I did as regards this. Back in Feb, when I was on the cusp of this material, I had a lesson with Rob. I said, look, I'm here on this E. My next note is F. I can go for this F, or I can run a mile over here like Leavitt says. Is there any point to what Leavitt is asking me to do, or can I just play the nearby one?
Guess what? He said I should go for the Leavitt F. (You just knew that was coming, didn't you?) Why? Well, first off, it is a big stretch (a leap for me) but higher up the fretboard, not such a big deal. Second that particular note comes in handy for doing a 2-5-1. Then he demonstrated, and I confess I didn't catch it all, but I got the general drift.
So, my own decision has been for these exercises in this book, to play the Leavitt F. I have no doubt for soloing I will use the sensible one. But for knowledge of the scale and the fretboard, I am convinced it is worthwhile getting to know the far-away one too
Edit: And thankyou so much for that about embedding. I was making it much more complicated by using the embed code. I seem to have got it now!
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Well, Miss TLT, one thing's for sure: your osteopath knows his stuff. A smaller guitar would AMAZE you, how different, how much easier becomes the playing. With a full-size or "dreadnought" (literally "battleship"), most of the length of our arms and the mobility of our hands are taken up just trying to reach around the damned thing. I played a dreadnought for the first "phase" of my guitar life, and I learned a lot, because that's all I did. But, upon beginning the 2nd phase, 18 years later, I started playing smaller guitars, and the progress has been utterly amazing, and with far less work. It gives you control. You feel in domination of the guitar -- and not as if the guitar is a refrigerator and you're trying to balance it and reach around it and make pretty music on it. Originally Posted by ten left thumbs
Consider a 000-size or a 00-size (or a Parker acoustic, if you can locate one - they're awesome, but not being made anymore. Still, quite a few are around, usually about $400 - $1000, which is less than half the original price.)
When you play in open position, do you keep your thumb centered in the back of the neck, as you do (I hope!) when you play in closed position? This will give you back all that wonderful "stretch" - and maybe your hand won't hurt! Go to YouTube and look for "classical guitar left-hand position" - it's there, I'll bet ya.
I began playing in my late teens, was athletic, had boundless energy and strength, and don't remember ever having a pain (shoot me, I know) -- but when I began the 2nd phase, at age 48, I quickly developed 1) carpal tunnel syndrome 2) bursitis that nearly killed me, and 3) another slipped disc. Why? Because I thought I should be able to practice as I did when I was young and lithe and free of pituitary disease.
The shift from open to closed positions, though -- I don't even recall. I had tinkered with some basic classical pieces, so going to thumb-in-the back, arched-fingertips -- this was no big deal at all.
I suggest you play with your thumb in the back, even when you're in open position. And the discombobulation that open strings give you - I think you'll get used to it as you continue to sight read. Also, maybe learn some fiddle tunes ("flatpicking") -- this style makes extensive use of open strings. And the more you USE open strings, the more familiar and at ease with them you'll become, I think. I realized after reading your post that I make no difference between open an "closed" notes when I read or play. So give it time.
Don't ever play through pain. Truefire.com has a good video course by Bruce Arnold on the physiology of playing guitar and avoiding injury. I think it's about $29.95. Go there and search for his name if you're interested (it's good - I have it.)
Mainly: try to get a smaller guitar! Takamine makes one called a "Jasmine" something or other - small, beautiful, cutaway, solid top, $129!!! My cousin has one and it sounds very good and plays great, too. Don't buy a classical guitar for this course - neck is 2" wide.
My 2 cents.
kojo [edit on 6/12/2014: of course, the Jasmine guitars for $129 are likely NOT solid-topped guitars; but still, at least the one my cousin had (now dismantled by young daughter), had been properly set up, and played great.]Last edited by Kojo27; 06-12-2014 at 10:55 PM.
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I had to ponder this a little:
I have been so much happier since I stopped trying to read tab. I think I have a special 'block-diagram-dyslexia' thing happening. I know it makes sense. But I've been confused about direction since I didn't know which string was at the top, I'm totally hopeless with finger numbers, and I always confuse strings and frets. I am so much happier when I'm going for notes, rather than a vast array of coordinates. Finger 6, string 7, fret 3.5. Originally Posted by Kojo27
And the patterns! Guitarists love these patterns and I struggle so hard to stop them from moving about. But notes and chords I can deal with.
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A smaller guitar - I would love, but it'll have to wait. Even if that sets me back. If all else fails, I can play the electric. I do appreciate the info though. Playing a fridge, is exactly what it feels like.
Now, the position of the thumb. I have heard much discussion about this, and I don't understand at all. Where else could the thumb go? Of course it's on the back of the neck. Where else could I possibly put it?
Injury is a problem. I'll admit I waited too long with this one before doing something. My osteopath is wonderful (apart from also being a guitarist). I'll follow his exercises for a while and see if I can get away without spending too much more. I think it's a simple problem and will go away if I'm sensible. Patience required. I've also just booked some lessons...
Sorry to hear about the bursitis, I just looked that up and it looks horrible...
What kind of fiddle tunes are you thinking of? I have a whole bunch of Scots/Irish music I play whistle to. Mostly it's in D. Never really tried the tunes on guitar.
Copy that re classical guitar. If one falls in my lap, I'll keep it and learn classical. (As well as, not instead!) But I'm not looking.
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Well TLT,since you openly admit to having ten thumbs i suppose in your case your thumbs could be anywhere.Sorry about that i couldn't resist it.However i think when we hear people talk about the thumb being positioned on the back of the neck,they are in most cases saying not to curl it over the top of the fret board like Hendrix used to and many other rock players.I have never had a tendency to do this as my hands are quite small.But i think for those with large hands this can be a natural thing to do,but is looked at as a bad habit by many educators.
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I should be so lucky! Originally Posted by gingerjazz
I promise, if I ever find myself playing like Hendrix, I'll stop.
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Not a Hendix fan then?
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It's a whole genre of guitar playing - fiddle tunes for guitar. Great fun, VERY hard.What kind of fiddle tunes are you thinking of? I have a whole bunch of Scots/Irish music I play whistle to. Mostly it's in D. Never really tried the tunes on guitar.
Here's a guy who's a bit nutty, but fun. Take note, too, that he didn't start playing guitar (or any stringed instrument) until after college! But he's a gifted classical pianist... plays in Taylor Swift's band -- in case you know who she is.
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Kojo - thanks for that. Very similar to what I play on whistle - but looks very hard on a guitar.
Ginger - on that contrary, you've got to love Hendrix! I simply meant that level of playing is beyond me. Back to the subject, though, I don't get nearly the hand-stretch from playing in open as I do in 2nd.
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This is a pretty piece and I could spend a lot of time trying to get this down better. But, I want to get to where I can read through this and play it better, say after one or two readings.
So, I didn't follow the fingerings and I'm sure Leavitt's fingerings would improve my performance. And I played it slow and there are a few mistakes.
So little time so many Leavitt pieces to record.
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Superb job, Frank -- on this and the other videos for this section. Good handling of the stretches. If you've never done stretchy scales, it feels terrible at first, but becomes natural, especially after some sight-reading. I can sight-read in closed positions, I've discovered, 50x better than in stuff like "Pretty Pickin'"... Originally Posted by fep
The Leon White book I linked to uses position-based reading.
I tried the chord etude - it's a bear. Congrats on all this stuff well played.
kj
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Not to beat this to death, but it's important. When you're in "open" position (I believe there's really no such thing in classical parlance), try this test: Originally Posted by ten left thumbs
The little web of skin between thumb and first finger -- is any of that touching the back of the guitar neck when you're in 2nd position? And are your fingertips coming straight in toward the notes, or are they tilted a bit, like a violinists' would be?
You get much more stretch and nimbleness if you're arching your wrist and if your fingers are coming straight in toward the fingerboard. Here are some pics (below) -- note the first one. When in "open" position, your hand should, ideally, be the same way. And although some would argue there's no right or wrong way to play, I disagree, especially for those of us without gigantic hands. Guitar is a big sucker - so we maximize everything that can be maximized (if it should be maximized.)
Also, if you hurt your back from playing whilst sitting on a couch - aha! Me, too. Couches are so comfy, but aren't for guitar playing. Get a chair with no arms - a kitchen chair is good. Prop your feet up on something (stack of books? Guitar case?) - to get a good, comfortable position where you feel in domination of the strings. MANY players are finding great comfort and feelings of control by placing the guitar on the LEFT leg as they sit, as classical players do. I see this more and more. And many tilt the neck upward, again as classical players do.
Rob can show you the left-hand positions, but he has huge hands, so keep any possible biases in mind.
That's Kojo's Tip o' the Day!
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Frank - Hey, you manage to make it look easy!
Kojo - always happy to talk technique.
I just tried and looked. What I discovered is what I do with fingers and hand position depends very much on what I'm playing. The webbing between thumb and index never touches the neck, but often the inner part of the knuckle joint of index touches the edge of the fretboard. This may be (1) of necessity, because I'm playing on 6th string (2) for comfort and to reduce tension or (3) to help mute strings. I'm aware certain sections I raise my hand, increase the arch because I need to let that string ring. Originally Posted by Kojo27
I should probably try to video this because it's quite difficult to observe what I'm doing, while playing, but not change my habits!
Tilt. Well I move around while playing. If you take a set-square to the fretboard and my fingers, you probably won't find many right angles. Will try to video.
Sitting in a dining chair is almost as bad as sofa. It's an issue of height. When I sit there is a finite distance between my thigh where the guitar rests, and my shoulder. The guitar's body has to fit in that distance. Ideally, my arm rests over the guitar, elbow at the edge, and it is relaxed - this happens when I stand. When I sit, the body is high enough I need to reach over, using muscle power to get my arm there and then keep it there.
Also, if you hurt your back from playing whilst sitting on a couch - aha! Me, too. Couches are so comfy, but aren't for guitar playing. Get a chair with no arms - a kitchen chair is good. Prop your feet up on something (stack of books? Guitar case?) - to get a good, comfortable position where you feel in domination of the strings. MANY players are finding great comfort and feelings of control by placing the guitar on the LEFT leg as they sit, as classical players do. I see this more and more. And many tilt the neck upward, again as classical players do.
I discovered a few other things from playing standing. First, I can move around a lot better. Second, I think the guitar resonates better, maybe because it's touching me less? Anyway I do think it sounds better.
People have been playing keyboards and pianos for hundreds of years longer than they have been playing guitars, also the differences in technique from one genre to the next on piano - these differences in technique are smaller than for guitar. Guitar covers huge ranges of difference types of playing, each with differences in technique. By comparison, piano is more stable. But - and here is my point - piano technique has changed hugely in the last 30 years. 'Good technique' is constantly evolving, and everyone is discovering that what we were taught decades ago no longer is completely true.
I really think guitar technique is in its infancy. I think in 30 years time it might look quite different.
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Agreed about the guitar and technique. You'll be pleased, I think, to know that Bruce Arnold, in his TrueFire video on avoiding injuries while playing guitar, says: STAND. He's an electric guitar slinger, a Les Paul-type 15 lb. square foot of wood -- I could never comfortably play a solid-body electric guitar, although the one I have is the sweetest-sounding thing... (sigh). Originally Posted by ten left thumbs
Kojo - always happy to talk technique.
I just tried and looked. What I discovered is what I do with fingers and hand position depends very much on what I'm playing. The webbing between thumb and index never touches the neck, but often the inner part of the knuckle joint of index touches the edge of the fretboard. This may be (1) of necessity, because I'm playing on 6th string (2) for comfort and to reduce tension or (3) to help mute strings. I'm aware certain sections I raise my hand, increase the arch because I need to let that string ring.
Tilt. Well I move around while playing. If you take a set-square to the fretboard and my fingers, you probably won't find many right angles. Will try to video.
Sitting in a dining chair is almost as bad as sofa. It's an issue of height. When I sit there is a finite distance between my thigh where the guitar rests, and my shoulder. The guitar's body has to fit in that distance. Ideally, my arm rests over the guitar, elbow at the edge, and it is relaxed - this happens when I stand. When I sit, the body is high enough I need to reach over, using muscle power to get my arm there and then keep it there.
I discovered a few other things from playing standing. First, I can move around a lot better. Second, I think the guitar resonates better, maybe because it's touching me less? Anyway I do think it sounds better.
People have been playing keyboards and pianos for hundreds of years longer than they have been playing guitars....Good technique' is constantly evolving, and everyone is discovering that what we were taught decades ago no longer is completely true.
I really think guitar technique is in its infancy. I think in 30 years time it might look quite different.
But yes - if you can do it, stand. Much more resonance. If you go to playing a smaller-bodied guitar, say an F-hole archtop, 16" -- you can begin to experiment more with neck angle, I'd imagine. Watch videos of Joe Pass, the jazz soloist/genius - he made it look effortless, standing up, or sitting on a stool (another good option) with the guitar neck at a sharp upward angle. His left hand had no work to do in supporting the guitar - it was free to play notes.
All I meant to say about the web of skin at the base of the left thumb is to make sure it doesn't touch the guitar overmuch, if at all. Some grab the neck like a baseball bat and expect to play that way -- and you can if you have big hands, but still... there's a better way. Keep the same left-hand position in "open" position that you use in "closed" positions. You should get the same amount of stretch and mobility this way.
kj
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I'm not a fan of that right hand position in the picture above. I tried it and it's feels very tense, and seems impossible for me to relax the hand and arm in that position.
It also looks that the hand is tense in the picture.
It's it just me? Can you all relax with that exact position?
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Hello,
I agree with fep regarding the right hand position shown in the photo above; my philosophy has always been to use relaxed and accurate movements. The right hand is to have a positive yet loose grip of the pick; no squeezing necessary.
In response to the left hand position, I have always used the simple philosophy learned by Vincent Bredice which (paraphrasing) is "the palms of either hand should never touch the instrument.
The thumb in the middle of the back of the neck is an optimal and efficient position.
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Kojo, that's good to know about standing. I'm still not 100% used to it, but at least it's comfortable.
I imagine the fingers would be 'fettered' and not able to move around? Originally Posted by Kojo27
All I meant was that in 2nd position, to get a good legato between low D and low E is a big stretch (which I initially found v difficult). Nothing in open challenges my hand like that.Keep the same left-hand position in "open" position that you use in "closed" positions. You should get the same amount of stretch and mobility this way.
kj
fep - for the rh position, that looks to me like a 'posed' photo. I think it's always difficult to get anything across in a static photo. It seems there are lots of effective ways of using the rh, which just underlines my point about the difficulty of getting any kind of definite guitar technique.
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