Mickey Baker vs Jody Fisher?

[jeppelavsen]

Hi. I am gonna start seriously on one of these book series. What would you recommend?

Looks like Jody is more modern, but very many recommend Mickey's.

Somebody knows both? And could you point out some cons and pros? Thank you were much, you are all the best community a guitarist could have

[Drumbler]

Fisher has a lot more material and I think is more advanced. Therefore I think it a bit overwhelming for a beginner. Fisher is excellent though.

Baker is deceptively simpler and more manageable. Even so it will take you years to assimilate his book 1.

It depends where you are. If you are advanced then Fisher. But for most Baker would be better in the beginning. I like his approach to chords. He gets you up and running quickly. His book is one of the very few I've ever seen that gets you playing with practical applications of chords. His soloing is based on arpeggios.

The Baker book is so inexpensive ($8) that I'd buy it first and check it out. It's good to have in your library.

I recommend an investigation of chord substitution in addition to either book. Get an idea how chord substitution works and how to apply it to jazz chords. Baker gets right into it but does not really explain it. But he shows you what and how to do it which is very good.

[wizard3739]

Both books are excellent choices but IMHO the Mickey Baker books are easier to assimilate at a beginner's level and will provide more practical info to start playing quickly.

wiz

[Dad3353]

Hi. I am gonna start seriously on one of these book series. What would you recommend?...

Good evening, jeppelavsen...
Difficult to choose between them, as, imho (I have both, and others...) they are complementary. I will echo drumbler: MB is so inexpensive (nearly wrote 'cheap'; it's not cheap contents..!) I don't see how you could go wrong. I would recommend JF, but would add later. They cover the ground in very different ways, but all that you glean from MB will always serve you, no wastage.
There are many here able and willing to reply to questions (on either...) if you get 'stuck' anywhere.
Of course, it depends somewhat on your goals, but MB has a lot (not all, but a lot...), and if it's survived all this time, whilst not claiming it to be timeless, at least all in there is applicable today (and tomorrow, and the next day...).
Your call; let us know how you fare..?
Hope this helps...

[matt.guitarteacher]

Did anyone here use Jody Fisher's books as their principle method in learning jazz guitar from the beginning?

It's a fantastic resource every jazz player should probably own, but I can't imagine giving it to a beginner for self instruction when getting started with jazz.

Don't throw anything! I think he's the mac. :-)

[jdazey]

Well, as an absolute beginner, I picked up Fisher's book and found a lot of great information just reading it even though I can't begin to play it all. Having been around this forum for a while, I'm beginning to see gaps in my understanding and certainly playing that Mickey Baker might fill in, so I'm ordering a set.

So is the Ted Greene stuff appropriate for beginner level players?

Joe

[child as audience]

I received both MB vol. 1 & 2 and JF (entire works with DVD’s) just last week. After a quick glance at each, I decided to focus my efforts on MB cover to cover before opening JF.

The JF begins by saying that the book is NOT for a complete beginner to jazz, and expects that you have completed either a beginner “blues method” or “rock method” as a prerequisite.

The thing I find the coolest about the MB book is that it isn’t as methodical as JF, but it absolutely can be…depending on how YOU want to attack the information.

For example; you can memorize the 26 chords of lesson 1 and move on to the exercise, OR you can memorize them, understand the scales from which they are derived, why they are named as such…et cetera. I really like that about the MB. I can be as geeky as I want, or I can just play.

[matt.guitarteacher]

The JF begins by saying that the book is NOT for a complete beginner to jazz, and expects that you have completed either a beginner “blues method” or “rock method” as a prerequisite.

From Jody Fisher’s introduction to the Beginning vol. of his Jazz Guitar series:
“This series of books is for the self-taught student as well as those studying with a teacher”, and then “If you are just beginning your jazz education, you should definitely start with this book and proceed from lesson to lesson and book to book. “

Did anyone here use Jody Fisher's books as their principle method in learning jazz guitar from the beginning?

Since no one has responded to this, I’ll throw in my 2 cents. First, I might add to the question, “Have any of you teachers out there ever used this book as your primary resource for teaching? If so, do you use all of the material? Do you sequence it the same way? What do you change and with what do you supplement?
My major questions regarding Jody Fisher’s book as a first or primary method book for beginners in jazz guitar study have to do with the sequencing of material presented in the book and the fingerings of scales and chords used in it. To me, they often seem to be contrived.
Fisher divides each lesson into 2 sections. One for harmony and the other for single-note soloing.

Harmony

Lesson one is open-chord-review material. Lesson 2 covers triads in 4 different “string sets” in root position for maj, min, dim and augmented triads. Lessons 2 and 3, respectively, cover first and second inversion triads. While triads are a great place to start when learning chord theory, it seems tedious to go through 4 lessons before going beyond a triad (my 2c). If anything it at least seems systematic. String sets, then, each inversion.

In contrast to this systematic approach, the following lessons on “larger chords”, are introduced four-voicings-at-a-time and by chord type in a seemingly random way. Between the chords, even between the different types, there’s not really any relationship in terms of voice leading, inversion, string set or fingering. For introducing chords, the sequence over the next 10 lessons or so is: Maj and Min 6ths, Major, Minor, and dom 7ths, all three qualities of 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths, and finally, add9s, min7b5s, diminished, sus7s, MinMaj7ths and dominant 7th augmented Chords.
The first lesson on 6th chords, for example, has you play an etude using 6th chords in four different voicings and minor 6th chords (with no relationship to their maj 6th counterparts in any way) in four different voicings.

I feel that, for a beginner, time spent learning the 3rd and 4th arbitrary voicing of one chord type could be better spent learning voicings of another chord type so that you can eventually play a tune (in days instead of weeks). You add new chord voicings the rest of your life. This aspect of the book has the feel of a limited chord encyclopedia with exercises, since there is no obvious relationship between the chords.

If a beginning student learns two voicings each of maj7, min7, dom7, min7b5 and diminished chords, he’ll know ten chords and have a vast number of tunes he could play. If he spends the same amount of time learning chords in the Fisher book, he would know four 6th chords, four minor 6ths and a couple of maj 7ths. Min7b5s, diminished and other altered chords are weeks later.

Single Note Soloing

The single-note soloing section uses major scales in six different positions, three with roots on the 6thstring, and three with roots on the 5th string. If you know much about the instrument, you can imagine that there is quite a bit of overlap in these fingerings. Again, in my opinion, a beginning student’s time could probably be better spent learning a new scale type altogether than learning an overlapping, alternative fingering pattern.

The fingering also seems arbitrary. They use shifts and stretches (sometimes both in the same scales). For a beginner, it would seem to be more beneficial to learn either a CAGED-type system with shifts or a Leavitt-type system with stretches in which you stay in one position. To combine these seems to diminish the benefits of both and reduce the ability to see the relationships of the patterns across string sets.

To Fisher’s credit, he seems to value understanding the theory behind what he’s doing above all else. I personally think theory is best learned in the context of playing tunes. That is why I think that this book is best appreciated as a resource rather than a method for beginner self- instruction. The Coda section with a practical discussion on playing jazz in general, how to practice and such is probably worth the price of this inexpensive book. Add to this Fisher’s beautifully laid out vertical chord scales and comprehensive discussion of theory and many other practical considerations and I think you have a book every jazz guitar player should have in their library.

I know it sounds like I’ve trashed his method, but I just don’t understand why it is is consistently recommended on this forum as a great first jazz guitar method book. I really would like to know if this opinion comes from your personal experience teaching a beginner or when you were a beginner yourself. For teachers who have used this book, I’d like to know how you use it and how you would respond to the things I’ve mentioned. If you’ve never used it with a beginning student or as a beginner yourself, but think (like I do) that it has lot of great material in it, I’d ask you to consider why you so highly endorse it as a beginner method.
I know that as a teacher, I often see a book and think that it looks great. Then, when I actually start teaching out of it to someone who knows nothing, I can see the holes. It’s hard as an experienced player sometimes to see something through the eyes of a beginner. In jazz, it’s definitely easier for me to see that point of view. :-)

Beginner Methods for Self-Instruction

First of all, self-instruction is a term coined to sell books. Unless there’s nothing else you can do, get a teacher. I’ve done self-instruction off and on in jazz for many years, in jazz-instruction no man’s land. Honestly, never having had a teacher has been a tremendous waste of time. I hope to do some on-line stuff soon.
If you have to go with books, I would recommend Mickey Baker vol. 1, Leavitt’s Modern Guitar Method vol.1 and Jody Fisher’s Beginning Jazz Guitar book. In my opinion, there’s not onebook that will do it. If, for financial reasons, you have to choose between getting all volumes of any one of these versus getting the beginning volume of each, get the beginning version only. There’s years of material in these volume 1 books.

Mickey Baker will get you playing something that sounds enjoyable immediately. In my mind it’s kind of playing jazz by rote. I don’t think that’s a bad thing for a beginner. A lot of people do. (I, for example, might be inclined to advise you to play some Robert Conti chord melodies if you’re tired of “drilling” chords. They’ll get voicings under your fingers and sound like actual songs. )

Once you get to the point where you “need” to know what’s going on theory-wise, Jody Fisher and William Leavitt’s Modern Guitar Method both present theory for guitar in a great way. I like Leavitt as a “first jazz chord book” because he groups chords by fingering similarities and voice-leading. From the beginning, even with simple chords, they sound great together. Where Mickey Baker is doing a lot of chord subbing from the start, Leavitt is beginning with basic forms. The most-used chords take priority at the beginning of the book. So it’s really practical.

He addresses a lot of fingering issues needed in chord-melody in his chord studies (or whatever they’re called). If you read music like a champ, this may be your all-in-one book. It’s got a lot of material and presents a ton of theory. If you don’t read well, play the chords and get a few volumes of Mel Bay or something and learn to read. For single note soloing, Band in a Box is your best friend. Use the principles introduced in the Jody Fisher book, but maybe use the Leavitt or CAGED (like Jimmy Bruno) fingerings.

[Rob MacKillop]

Maybe this will be of help: Mickey Baker Jazz Guitar | Rob MacKillop ~ banjos, guitars, lutes and more

Mickey's book will give you the flavour of jazz, and many top-level players started with it. Eventually you would want something more modern (who here has only one book?!) and the Fisher books are good for that.

Rob

[child as audience]

From Jody Fisher’s introduction to the Beginning vol. of his Jazz Guitar series:
“This series of books is for the self-taught student as well as those studying with a teacher”, and then “If you are just beginning your jazz education, you should definitely start with this book and proceed from lesson to lesson and book to book. “

True. I did read that part, and should have left "beginner TO JAZZ" out of of my response to tackling JF as a primary source.

I was referring to the preface of Chapter 1; Getting Started.

“This is not a book for complete beginners. This chapter is a review of the concepts you will need to use this series. You can refer to Beginning Blues Guitar by David Hamburger or Beginning Rock Guitar by Paul Howard, both available at your local music store, if you need further clarification of these concepts.”

[eric68]

Hi guys, I would to ask you a simple question:
I'm not a beginner, but I decided to study Chord Melody with Mickey Baker's book as someone suggest in this thread;
but do you mean this book "Mickey Baker's Complete Course in Jazz Guitar: Book 1 &2" or there is another method dedicated to Chord Melody??

Thanks from Italy.

[Rob MacKillop]

Baker wrote two books, parts 1 and 2 - most people just get part 1.

[ChrisDowning]

Matt's answer is very good and gives you what you need. I have used all these books in teacher and agree with him.

But you might also lie to take a look at this syllabus from Trinity music college in London. It's very jazz orientated and the new syllabus for next year is supposedto be even more obviously jazz based. The great thing hereis they give you a list ofall the materials you need at each grade level - so its a great spine to base your studies around. A syllabus, a study plan, is what you need rayher than just the books. Take a look here http://www.trinitycollege.co.uk/resource/?id=4694 The second half of the PDF is the plectrum guitar syllabus.

Anyone used these materials yet or had students doing jazz peices for the exams?

[Rob MacKillop]

Yes, Chris, I have one student who has just passed Grade 4, and another student who is working on Grade 6. My feeling about the syllabus is mostly positive, there are some good pieces in there for plectrum/pick-style guitar. On the negative side I have noticed one or two pieces which are clearly fingerstyle in origin, and much harder to play with a plectrum than with the fingers.

However, it doesn't teach or support improvisation, which possibly defines jazz music. Improv is harder to pitch in a Grade system, which is possibly why they are avoiding it. That said, I am interested to learn more about your comment that the new syllabus will be more jazz based.

As an aside, there is one book of plectrum pieces which the syllabus refers to, and that is Adrian Ingram's "25 Graded Pieces for Plectrum Guitar", which I recorded as free mp3 files, which might help the curious get an insight to what the book is about, and what one might be expected to play in the Trinity Grade Syllabus. You can see the book cover and hear all the files at the bottom of this page: http://robmackillop.net/guitar/jazz/plectrum-guitar/

[ChrisDowning]

Yes I agree. The point was about having some sort of work plan and I think at least the Trinity stuff gives graded pieces and a progression. I agree it doesn't really give you a lot of improv to work on, but that is why I think you would need to suppliment with the books talked about in earlier posts. But for a real beginner this could be a plan they need rather than striking out with picking just one book. I think a lot of players get started on jazz before they are ready to do the work - the Trinity studies will show where you are and the materials to get you playing performance level pieces. I'm not too sure you can improv until you can play some basic standards off the sheet. For example I know lots of players who would just not want to do that Hank Marvin thing playing melody with nowhere to hide - and cover up that shortcoming by 'improving' everything around a pentatonic scale.

[Rob MacKillop]

I entirely agree that the Trinity Syllabus is good for bringing structure to your studies, and that it should be supplemented by other work. I do, though, believe that improv should be and can be done from day one, e.g. here are four notes - sing them and play them at the same time, try to make up short melodies, question and answer, etc, etc. Ultimately we need a bit of everything.

[ChrisDowning]

Yes agreed. It is nothing like as hard to do this with a student as many think. If you take a look at the book Chord Tone Soloing, students 'get' those first exercises very quickly and gain a lot of confidence from the experience.

[Rob MacKillop]

Getting back to the original question - Mickey Baker or Jody Fisher...

Both have plusses and minuses. Baker's book is good for introducing jazz chords, but the second part of the book is for solo note soloing, and is not so well thought out. Fisher goes more into that side of things. So, instead of Baker VERSUS Fisher, I would say Baker AND Fisher. Between the two of them, you will learn a lot.

But if you want to play some self-contained solos, i.e. requiring no backing track, playing melody, chords, some bass lines, then the Trinity Syllabus is very useful.

Might as well add in Leavitt's Modern Guitar Method for reading studies, and you are good to go!

But most of all, listen, listen, listen! Can't beat that.

[ChrisDowning]

Yes I would agree with all you say Rob - a good set of materials that a student could build more books upon much later in their studies. And I agree with Fisher + Baker. Neither seems complete on their own. That Joe Elliot book might be a nice addition once you get started - especially as there is a supporting study group here in the forum and another group for the Mickey Baker book as well. Not sure if anyone has done a Jody Fisher group - I'll have to have a search. BTW I have been talking about the four book series Jody wrote for Alfred Publishing starting with "Beginning Jazz Guitar"

[ecj]

matt.guitarteacher - really nice post. Your comments on Fisher are pretty much exactly how I feel about this books. His explanations are really nice insights into the jazz process, and the etudes are often pretty. The scale fingerings are pretty illogical and weird, and the method of just throwing chords at you is strange.

I actually like the way he teaches triads, and find it weird that once he adds in the 7ths he moves away from talking about inversions in a sensible way to just throwing grips at you.

The way I think about the books is as a "read through" series before getting to more serious and useful stuff. If you just take a few months to read through the Fisher books and play everything, without worrying about internalizing every voicing or awkward scale fingering (look at his weird pentatonic fingerings!) you'll have a good understanding of why you're playing all the other stuff you're playing when you get to other methods.

[Drumbler]

Hi guys, I would to ask you a simple question:
I'm not a beginner, but I decided to study Chord Melody with Mickey Baker's book as someone suggest in this thread;
but do you mean this book "Mickey Baker's Complete Course in Jazz Guitar: Book 1 &2" or there is another method dedicated to Chord Melody??

Thanks from Italy.

The Mickey Baker books 1&2 are not chord melody books.

[ChrisDowning]

Drumbler - yes agreed and the Jody Fisher ones are not very chord melody either. It's all in there, but a beginner would find Jody's books are hard study if all they wanted was a chord melody method. I am not sure what I would recommend as a simple intro to chord melody - something that starts from easy harmonised scales and top note melodies built from chords. Anyone know some books?

[matt.guitarteacher]

something that starts from easy harmonised scales and top note melodies built from chords.

Robert Conti's Assembly Line

[ChrisDowning]

Yep - I had forgotten that series by Robert Conti, Matt. Really practical lessons from a consummate pro player. Good call mate!

[Stu Foley]

I agree that with the Fisher series, the underlying logic to how the voicings are introduced is hard to fathom following the treatment of triad theory. Out of interest, what do you think is the most logical, progressive method of introducing chord voicings? I note that some of the old time books by Ronnie Lee and Arnie Berle are still highly regarded.