Learning guitar as second instrument

[princeplanet]

Firstly, welcome to the forum lua !

It's my hope that you stick around for a few years (I'm not kidding!), because if you're serious about getting some guitar chops together, then it will take at least that long. But then you don't mention what sort of ideas you'd like to execute on the instrument? There's probably more stylistic variations for Jazz guitar each with their specific technical requirements. If you're thinking pianistic ideas, then right hand finger picking might be important to you, and as has been suggested, go to the Classical Guitar (CG) pedagogy for that.

But if it's plectrum style for things like comping and soloing, then you have to train both hands to be in sync in order to execute anything. For chords, I'd suggest learn all the Drop 2 and Drop 3 inversions up the neck as well as different string sets. For single line playing, just learn the scales and arps you know in at least 5 different positions on the guitar, the CAGED system is a good place to start.

If you already know how to construct Jazz (Bop?) lines on the piano, then you'll soon see that chromatic embellishments are tricky to master on guitar. The better you can see where the chord tones are for every chord in every position, the sooner you'll be able to work out how to modify your arp and scale shapes to accomodate the chromatic stuff (enclosures etc). You won't really need a scale or arps book because if you already know Jazz on the piano, you can work it all out.

Things that will save time though might be chord diagrams, but really, once you know 5 positions for say a maj7 chord, you'll know how to modify that shape to get all your other chords. Another thing may be specific picking techniques which can challenge you for many years. From strict alternate picking, through to "sweep" picking as well as combinations "economy" picking etc. Remember, your left hand will only be able to execute what the right hand enables it to, and this is the most frustrating thing for a piano player moving to guitar. Also check out "hybrid" picking techniques that combine the plectrum and finger picking.

But again, it gets back to what kind of style and level you're aspiring to? I have a friend who is considered by his peers to be a world class Jazz pianist who has also played guitar for over 20 years.
He says he'll never be a good guitarist and has never even bothered to try to get seriously good, "it's too hard!"...

[Bobby Timmons]

Op is gone. That's what they do.

[Christian Miller]

Classical style players often have trouble with left hand muting and obviously it is not a plectrum pedagogy. Not that jazz guitar has to require either… but most players do use a pick and do also play chords with left hand muting.

Aside from that - sure. I think thats the gap Leavitt was trying to address tbh.


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[princeplanet]

Op is gone. That's what they do.

Oops, we scared off another one ... Ah well, maybe some day someone will google "pianist wants to learn Jazz guitar" and this thread might come up....?

[benhatchins]

For sure! I’ve always had a passion for music, and I wish I could find some time to learn another instrument right now. It’s something I’ve dreamed of doing for a long time, but with my college workload, it feels almost impossible. Thankfully, I’ve been getting a lot of support from academized.com/write-my-thesis, which has really helped me manage my studies more effectively. Their assistance has freed up some of my time, allowing me to focus on my assignments without feeling overwhelmed.

[pauln]

"Second instrument" kind of suggests that some of what you know for what you can do from the first one may be applied to the second, but that depends on how one conceives music and the difference in the mechanics of the second instrument, even more so if how one conceives music is tied closely to the mechanical technique of their first instrument. Instruments' mechanics are so different it almost seems a little wrong to use the same word "instrument" to group them. E.g., the concept of "position"...

Guitarists use the idea of position to describe the hand staying in the same place and changing its fingerings to play different things. That's simple enough to grasp if you're a guitarist. Then one may move from position, extend, overlap, or blend positions, or think of positions as collections of displaced renamed fingerings, or just not even think of positions. The ideas relating to position are multipurpose, semi-redundant, yet physically isomorphic with respect to the pitch class production mechanics of the finger board up to its nut and highest fret (it's complex yet clear because musically it is mechanically coherent).

Woodwinds don't have multiple positions; the hands always stay each in only one place from which the different fingerings produce all the possible pitches. The closest things to different positions are the different registers which may share the same mechanics of fingering (but not always the corresponding pitch classes).

Piano does not have conceptual positions, just mechanical accidents as an implication of the linearity of its unique series of chromatic pitches. The same hand position used to play two different things in the same place is naturally incidental. The closest thing to position in piano is the vague sense of right hand generally above the left, and the occasions of momentary attention when it is required to reverse them.

Brass instruments with valves have no positions; the closest thing for them is the different bands of "lip" (the series of controlled half octave registers within which the fingerings are applied). The trombone without valves has slide positions which are really the opposite of our definition - within a lip band these slide positions determine the pitch by moving the hand, so these "positions" are like fingerings and it is the lip band registers that are more like the concept of position.

Drums can be thought of in a couple of ways. You might call a position a certain period of configuration of selected parts of the kit (like 8 bars of ride cymbal and snare) during which the variations in how those are played might be analogous to fingerings to get different things.

[Spook410]

I played and gigged on saxophone first. I still think of intervals in my head on saxophone. In practice, it is just an entirely different kettle of fish and the two don't really overlap.

[2bornot2bop]

Positioning, Smohishioning.

There’s countless individuals throughout the decades of jazz history playing multiple instruments. Many of us grew up in bands playing multiple instruments. You simply adapt your mind, and body, to the new instrument.

Here’s Arturo Sandoval, a jazz trumpeter and flugelhorn player, playing piano as if it was his main instrument.

[Navdeep_Singh]

Positioning, Smohishioning.

There’s countless individuals throughout the decades of jazz history playing multiple instruments. Many of us grew up in bands playing multiple instruments. You simply adapt your mind, and body, to the new instrument.

Here’s Arturo Sandoval, a jazz trumpeter and flugelhorn player, playing piano as if it was his main instrument.

One of my goals in the near future is to competently play piano as a. 2nd instrument, well enough to play a standard from a chart, solo. I have to find the best use of my time to organize most efficiently, to get the technical aspects down-basically scales, chords, left hand vs right hand. Guitar technique is often driven by the type of music you are playing, ie, a flamenco guitarist is going tp learn the instrument in a radically different way than a rock guitarist.

I’’d love to find the resources to sketch out WHAT and how to practice piano as a 2nd instrument, already levering what I know about music from playing guitar. The good thing, per Hal Gaper, is from a technical point of view, unless you are Monk, playing the piano is playing the piano—they all go through the same process to learn the instrument (or so I have heard).

I guess I will prioritize learning simultaneous scales with the Left and right hand, learning to cross accordingly. The scale fingers for many of the first keys are the same (C,G, etc). When I practiced before, I had a big issue of crossing the thumb one hand (eg, C: 123-4567 ascending with the right hand) while descending with the Left hand. The first thumb crossing would cause the other hand to completely forget what it’s doing. Ie, I couldn’t synchronize both hands at the same time, with regard to the thumb crossing.

I didn’t put enough time on it. I could play the scale EITHER ascending or descending but simultaneously ascending while descending screwed me up.

[2bornot2bop]

One of my goals in the near future is to competently play piano as a. 2nd instrument, well enough to play a standard from a chart, solo. I have to find the best use of my time to organize most efficiently, to get the technical aspects down-basically scales, chords, left hand vs right hand. Guitar technique is often driven by the type of music you are playing, ie, a flamenco guitarist is going tp learn the instrument in a radically different way than a rock guitarist.

I’’d love to find the resources to sketch out WHAT and how to practice piano as a 2nd instrument, already levering what I know about music from playing guitar. The good thing, per Hal Gaper, is from a technical point of view, unless you are Monk, playing the piano is playing the piano—they all go through the same process to learn the instrument (or so I have heard).

I guess I will prioritize learning simultaneous scales with the Left and right hand, learning to cross accordingly. The scale fingers for many of the first keys are the same (C,G, etc). When I practiced before, I had a big issue of crossing the thumb one hand (eg, C: 123-4567 ascending with the right hand) while descending with the Left hand. The first thumb crossing would cause the other hand to completely forget what it’s doing. Ie, I couldn’t synchronize both hands at the same time, with regard to the thumb crossing.

I didn’t put enough time on it. I could play the scale EITHER ascending or descending but simultaneously ascending while descending screwed me up.

You can do it. First, practice your finger drills very slowly. Also, try a Hanon book to gain finger dexterity. Any competent scale book will teach you the proper fingering for scales.

I began with the Jazz Piano Book by Mark Levine. For chords, begin with simple Shell voicings.

Eventually learn to play identical rootless voicings, simultaneously, in each hand. Try ii V I’s through the cycle.

It’s important to speak, identify, the chord as you go up, and down, either chromatically, or over the Circle of 5th’s. Speak them out…. CMaj7, C7 etc. You’ll be programming your hands for each chord.

Spend at least 15 minutes at the piano each day. Certainly you can find 15 minutes in your day. As you progress, increase the amount of time you practice.

Guide to Jazz Chords for Beginners – YHI.pdf

Important: Learn to read Bass Clef

It’s only a whole step below treble clef.

There are many great online resources today. I’d recommend to begin with a ballad, which will aid in programming your fingers. It’s akin to learning grips on the guitar.

The greatest online jazz piano resource available today is Open Studio on YouTube.