Any other bakers on here?

[RJVB]

I grew up having slices of (whole-wheat) bread for breakfast and lunch, and have never felt like giving up that heritage after moving to France. Despite the bread culture in this country *) still meet some non-understanding for this habit, and have been baking my own bread ever since I got access to a decent oven because you just won't find big loafs of bread in bakershops.

Currently 1 use 1kg of whole-wheat or "multi-cereals" flour and a 50/50 mix of dried bakers' yeast and my own sourdough (each supposed to handle up to 500g of flour). I usually add a bit of (flavoured) olive oil (and yesterday, the remainder of the poppy seeds I harvested last year ).

That's about 13 years of baking at least 1 loaf per week, so you'd think I have the routine down. Not that I don't, but I'm still struggling to avoid big holes in my loaves - souls as they call them here (and of course they're part of the French Bread Difference). Last week's loaf was perfect, the one I baked last night again has a 5x1 cm tunnel running about 1/3rd down from the crust over almost the entire length even though it's almost perfectly homogenously leavened/risen throughout elsewhere. It hardn't risen out of the pan particularly more than last week's either.

I think I've already tried just about anything to prevent this from happening but the only reliable "fix" I found to date is tapping or piercing a series of holes into it just before baking - with the inevitable collapse and overly compact bread as a result.

Any tips?

FWIW, I've given up on pre-leavening outside of the pan, re-kneading and a 2nd leavening stage in the pan, as the only difference it tends to make is an overall decreased rising "power" in the 2nd stage. I do want that gas to be produced and work its magic on my bread, just not to accumulate in one or a few big chambers!

*) I'm told that what I eat and make can't be called just "bread" here because it doesn't contain only white flour, water and bakers' yeast...

[mr. beaumont]

Following...I have utmost respect for bakers. An Art and a SCIENCE.

I'm a damn good cook...but I am NO baker.

[RJVB]

I'm a damn good cook...

Me too - somebody's got to say it, right?

In fact, it seems musicianship often goes with good skills in the kitchen (just 2 names that come to mind: Darrell Scott and Enrico Gatti). For me, imagining a combination of flavours is a bit like imaginging a chord (and I'm definitely better at building/realising the former than the latter!)

[mr. beaumont]

Me too - somebody's got to say it, right?

In fact, it seems musicianship often goes with good skills in the kitchen (just 2 names that come to mind: Darrell Scott and Enrico Gatti). For me, imagining a combination of flavours is a bit like imaginging a chord (and I'm definitely better at building/realising the former than the latter!)

Yeah, there's the improvisational nature, the need to be able to balance things going on at the same time, and then of course, lots of skills and preparation that pay off in the end. Cooking is a lot more like jazz than painting, for sure.

[RJVB]

the need to be able to balance things going on at the same time, and then of course, lots of skills and preparation that pay off in the end.

That's just the execution, the things that allow you to be good at following recipes. Or at painting your house

Yeah, there's the improvisational nature, [...] Cooking is a lot more like jazz than painting, for sure.

Neither of the musicians I cited are known for their jazz skills and painting as an art form must surely include a form of improvisation. I liken playing music to painting with sounds, and cooking to painting with flavours ... (I rarely follow recipes to the letter as I can't help but imagine what they'll taste like and how to make them my own.)

Anyway, the topic of the OP is squarely in the execution -artisan over artist- department

[pauln]

Dutch oven?

[RJVB]

No, made in France (or Italy) ^^

I do cook biscuits in a Dutch oven (though it's also French-made ) from time to time, but for me a loaf is a rectangular affair. I'm not even certain if my oval "cocottes" would qualify as Dutch ovens...
(And for the record, no one in my extented friends & family circles in the Netherlands would consider these "ovens"; I only learned about that use when I discovered Cowboy Kent Rollins's YT channel.)

[Tal_175]

I've been making bread since Covid. I use a dutch oven to get a better crust and oven spring. I used to have the opposite problem. My breads would always have an even crumb with small holes despite rising well (sort of like a sandwich bread). I always used a poolish. I tried to increase the hydration level. I learned the "slap and fold" method for working with high hydration dough. Even that didn't change the texture consistently. Then I made the perfect open crumb, chewy bread following a recipe that did some of the things very differently. The recipe used %80 biga (instead of poolish) but I realized that the real difference was how little kneading the recipe called for. I was kneading too much for the texture I was aiming for.

Later on I found out that the recipe was more or less based on what's considered to be the best bread cookbook in the recent years:
Flour Water Salt Yeast — Ken's Artisan

This is the recipe I mentioned earlier (it works!):
Open Crumb Rustic Bread Recipe with Biga :The Best Homemade Artisan Bread Recipe | MerryBoosters

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

My wife is the bread maker in the family -- sourdough, usually a mix of plain wheat, whole wheat and rye.

Anyway, we used to buy loaves from a couple that were trying to start a business, but still made the bread in their house. They would leave our loaf outside on their porch swing, with our name on it!

Here is one of theirs:



The loaves must have weighed 2kg each -- dense and chewy. I think they would proof the loaves for at least 24hrs.

They stopped baking because they were working on writing a book about food foraging in the valley, here. I think some of the yeasts they used were "wild'.

[Tal_175]

I knew it was gonna come to this, lol:

[mr. beaumont]

Well those are some gorgeous loaves.

[Jim Soloway]

No traditional breads but I make a variety of flat breads, loaves, cookies and muffins and some killer pancakes, all from scratch.

[mr. beaumont]

What I can bake is a very good pizza

[RJVB]

This is the recipe I mentioned earlier (it works!):
Open Crumb Rustic Bread Recipe with Biga :The Best Homemade Artisan Bread Recipe | MerryBoosters

Thanks, I'll see what I can glean of that.

I typically use about 500ml of water for 1kg of flour, but start with only as much of that as required to get my sourdough liquid and mixed (by hand) with the flour, and then continue adding water as needed while the foodprocessor does the kneading. Basically I aim for the point where the entire dough becomes a ball on the kneading hook. AFAIK that's the traditional method here you'll see described in books, but from what I understand it's too dry to give the kind of fluffy bread in the pictures above. Which is fine with me: I want a denser texture that's robust enough to smear butter or other things on without getting crushed or ripped apart.

I use a rectangular steel pan, basically a huge cake mould (?).

Can't find any pictures of my usual bread in its full glory, just of slices of it, plus a traditional rye bread (Frisian, I think) I made once.






(this one turned out perfect)


(this one had a similar "soul", aka wormhole; that's a Basque adaptation of crema de rocoto on top of it - using home-grown "pas d'espelette" chillis and Basque sheep cheese)

[RJVB]

What I can bake is a very good pizza

They do look appetising enough! How is that guitar (Breedlove?) involved?

[Tal_175]

Thanks, I'll see what I can glean of that.

I typically use about 500ml of water for 1kg of flour, but start with only as much of that as required to get my sourdough liquid and mixed (by hand) with the flour, and then continue adding water as needed while the foodprocessor does the kneading. Basically I aim for the point where the entire dough becomes a ball on the kneading hook. AFAIK that's the traditional method here you'll see described in books, but from what I understand it's too dry to give the kind of fluffy bread in the pictures above. Which is fine with me: I want a denser texture that's robust enough to smear butter or other things on without getting crushed or ripped apart.

I use a rectangular steel pan, basically a huge cake mould (?).

Can't find any pictures of my usual bread in its full glory, just of slices of it, plus a traditional rye bread (Frisian, I think) I made once.
(this one had a similar "soul", aka wormhole; that's a Basque adaptation of crema de rocoto on top of it - using home-grown "pas d'espelette" chillis and Basque sheep cheese)

Yeah, that looks rich and flavorful. But it's a very, very low hydration (almost bagel level) recipe. By baker's percentage, it's 50% hydration to be exact. Typical bread recipe never goes below 60-65%. Baguette's are around 70%, Ciabattas and Neapolitan pizzas are 80+% hydration.

But you can make "jam spreadable" even crumb bread or some say sandwich bread using high hydration percentages as well but they would come out softer I suppose. It all depends on the texture you like in the end.

[Tal_175]

They do look appetising enough! How is that guitar (Breedlove?) involved?

The back side of a telecaster work really well as a pizza oven shovel. Using a Beedlove acoustic for this purpose would require more skill. But if it catches fire you can always put it out with beer.

[mr. beaumont]

It's actually a Yamaha cheapie crossover nylon string.

Pizza can only be properly made outdoors if there's beer and a guitar to play, or so I've found.

These are 70% hydration on the dough.

Crema de rocoto sounds amazeballs.

[Kirk Garrett]

Yeah, there's the improvisational nature, the need to be able to balance things going on at the same time, and then of course, lots of skills and preparation that pay off in the end. Cooking is a lot more like jazz than painting, for sure.

Depends on the painter. Watercolor involves a lot of improvisation if you do it right.

[mr. beaumont]

Depends on the painter. Watercolor involves a lot of improvisation if you do it right.

Oils as well, but painting tends to be a solo performance.

Cooking is like playing with a combo and sometimes the drummer's rushing.

[RJVB]

Pizza can only be properly made outdoors if there's beer and a guitar to play, or so I've found.

I was thinking maybe you used the top as a gauge for your the thickness of your uncooked pizzas, but this sounds more ... plausible

Indoor Italian cooking can also call for a guitar, the more cumbersome multi-string kind

Crema de rocoto sounds amazeballs.

That first batch was, probably thanks to the probably more perfumed Espelette chillis, and my use of Basque sheep cheese. I'd hoped to have a nice batch for making sandwiches but it went down in two subsequent meals "by popular request"
I haven't yet tried the uncooked version.

But it's a very, very low hydration (almost bagel level) recipe.

Remember I use whole wheat, that doesn't react the same way as white wheat. I forgot to mention that ultimately I go for a specific consistency and stickyness (though "form a ball on the hook" is a pretty reliable indicator). As you probably know there's a relationship between temperature (and thus moisture content of the air?) and the amount of water you need to create a dough. 10+ years in and I still don't dare to say if it's indeed the colder months when I need more water, or the warmer

That rye bread from the pictures came a very wet and sticky dough that couldn't really be kneaded on a board (and had to be baked a lot longer at a lower temperature). My usual dough can, and is similar in consistency as the pizza dough I'm used to seeing (in Italian pizzerias, and the quantities are similar to that of the Napolitan pizza recipe my partner usually follows (except for the amount of olive oil of course). She got that recipe from the grandmother of a housemate from down there back when she was a student. Those pizzas don't look at all like the ones above

Come to think of it, my last dough was a bit wetter than usual (the last pour gave more than intended). Wetter dough means gaz can migrate (and accumulate) more easily instead of remaining trapped right where it is produced?

[Stevebol]

For bread I get sourdough at a local bakery. The only thing I really bake is apple cake.

[Kirk Garrett]

Oils as well, but painting tends to be a solo performance.

Cooking is like playing with a combo and sometimes the drummer's rushing.

I love it when I’m working on more than one area at a time.

[Gilpy]

I have been baking bread for many years. The ingredients are simple but how you prepare them makes a huge difference in the finished product.
The OP sometimes gets a big hole in his loaves. I have had this happen and I believe that it is caused by rolling the dough into a loaf shape instead of just forming it by shaping and stretching. And you will get better bread if you use good flour like King Arthur bread flour. Gold Medal is just awful for bread.
I no longer use bread pans because sometimes the loaves are great and sometimes they rise unevenly and sink, like the loaves in the pictures. Cooking bread in a Dutch oven gives me a perfect texture and crust every time. But the bread is not square!

[Tal_175]

Yeah good point. The final shaping is very important for the evenness and the oven spring.