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It's as important as you make it. But in itself it's not very significant. Like money, that's not important. You need a little, but that's all.
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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08-10-2023 11:28 AM
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You mean a hoarder? No, but I know someone who is. They can't stop ordering stuff. Then they forget they've got it and it sits around till it goes off or otherwise disintegrates :-) Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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Absolutely. I'm not suggesting throwing out music or the things one's interested in, quite the contrary. But it's a question of relative importance. Relationships are far more important, probably. We can't live in isolation. Originally Posted by GordonM
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Anybody else want some advice? I'm getting into this :-)
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600-plus years ago, Geoffrey Chaucer wrote, "The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne," which is a version of the classical Latin "Ars longa, vita brevis," which is a translation of an even older Greek saying (maybe from Hippocrates). It's literally an ancient observation, and it suggests that there is no end-point for the work of an art or craft.
While goals will differ, it seems to me that what we do with art/craft has to matter in and for itself, and that the supporting activities (practicing, studying theory, getting gigs, negotiating with bandmates) ought to arrange themselves according to their relationship to the making-music part. (Though if making music is also part of making a living, then other priorities may apply. Athletes don't work out for the fun of it.)
I'm 78 and not anything like a professional musician, though I've been playing in public with others for 28 years now. I do not have a practice regimen, but I do work on tunes and (sometimes) the technical skills required to play them in the contexts where they get called. (I'm a sitting-in guest with some pretty competent jazz guys--maybe more of a mascot. It's a status that might not bear close examination.) I'll keep on showing up and trying to keep up as long as my hands hold up and my welcome isn't worn out. But I don't worry about how far I'll get--I just want to play along. Getting a tune right, even on the sofa at home, is satisfying in itself. Doing so for an audience is the cherry on top.
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I love it! Thanks for the post. Originally Posted by RLetson
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Yeah, I suppose we’re venturing beyond the scope of the OP, but this seems right. Of course, there’s also a balance. You have to attach some importance to it to spend any time on it, but you also can’t act like it’s existentially important or you get overwhelmed or get negative etc. Originally Posted by ragman1
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This. Therefore, it’s important to choose those few things that will deliver the greatest benefits as you see them. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Perfectly said. Originally Posted by RLetson
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Older I get, I think its just tunes and voice leading. Good voice leading informs everything. Originally Posted by Kirk Garrett
Oh, and you gotta swing.
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I'm another one who is fighing against that mass of stuff "needing" learning. I've assembled a fair library of books, DVDs, streamed course subscriptions, etc etc and I know that if I sat down and really applied myself then I may be in with a shout of getting through about 10% of it before my time is up. The weight of all that potential knowledge and the work required to realise it can be daunting - especially when perusing the posts here and on YT and elsewhere when it feels like everyone else is several miles down the road and the first thing you have to do is catch up...
My answer has been two fold. In terms of addressing my inability to play anything resembling jazz I've simply allowed myself to learn a couple of dozen tunes, and a few major, minor, and dominant licks. Plus a couple of ii-V-1s. When I now jam with buddy of mine on these tunes (in the gypsy jazz style) I simply enjoy sticking close to the melody, weaving in a few variations and additions to that melody when space allows, and every once in a while playing a chorus based on the licks I know. What's been fun is that it works! It's almost like playing jazz, and with each week that goes by I learn a few more licks, or variations (or find myself altering the licks on the fly - occasionally on purpose), and progress is made.
The second thing has to been to choose just one of the aforementioned resources and give it my full attention, whether it's a Truefire course, a transcription I want to do, a book I'm working through. Whatever it is I just try and stick with that one thing for a lesson, a chapter, a chorus, and afterwards try and think about what I've learned and how I can add it to my small palette of choices.
Tiny steps, with no pressure to walk at all, I guess is what I'm saying.
Derek
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You’re actually playing jazz btw. It’s completely unrealistic to expect everyone be on the same level as Charlie Parker. Just like you don’t have to shred like SRV to play blues, you don’t have to have complete technical mastery to play jazz. It’s just instrumental music with improvisation. Originally Posted by digger
I’d rather play with someone who can toss licks together well over someone who knows every scale to play over every chord but sounds bad.
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There's a reason we call it playing music. Even for the most dedicated, ambitious, dead-serious, technically-accomplished musician, if it ain't playful, it's missing something. And, as mentioned upthread, it's needs to swing. (Though to my ear and body, "swing" is playful.)
But yield who will to their separation,
My object in living is to unite
My avocation and my vocation
As my two eyes make one in sight.
Only where love and need are one,
And the work is play for mortal stakes,
Is the deed ever really done
For Heaven and the future's sakes.
--Robert Frost, "Two Tramps in Mud-Time"
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But that’s also because you already learned a lot to get you to this level. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I do think this can sometimes lead to the same place as trying to learn everything. Originally Posted by Kirk Garrett
I think the idea is to lower the stakes—whatever you choose to do, and however you choose to do it.
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Yep. Practice room chops do not automatically translate to the stage. Originally Posted by emanresu
Imagine having 10000 years for practice. You sit in a void and learn all..
Then make your first performance.. and screw up because of stage fright
Or even worse - because "not feeling it today"
Practice room. Rehearsal room. Stage. Studio. These places all have very different requirements and it takes time and reptition to learn how to work effectively in all of them.
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True enough. But of i could go back that's how I'd streamline. Originally Posted by Kirk Garrett
And granted, there's a lot that goes into the voice leading thing.
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Howard Morgen has a little course on TrueFire called “fingerboard breakthrough” that is mostly focused on voice leading. You’re way beyond that level, but I got halfway through it before realizing there were a lot of fundamentals that I wanted to focus on first. But actually, I now realize that his course is really good at attacking some of those, including knowing the fretboard inside and out. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
In other words, if you focus on voice leading, it appears to force you to learn a bunch of other stuff along the way.
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Absolutely, DawgBone. Maybe off topic a bit, but I get so much from learning a piece as a solo (unaccompanied) piece. I'll say Solo. Duo. Vocal duo. Trio. Also areas of distinction in the same body of knowledge cut from a different angle, each of which has its own revelations. Originally Posted by DawgBone
Living room. Studio during a warm up before the first take. How many times has it been said "Why can't I sound as good as I do in my living room?" ha ha.
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"Why can't I sound as good as I do in my living room?"
cause your couch is a fan..not a critic..
alas..we put ALOT of pressure on ourselves
who said we MUST learn X by Monday or else
like many here I have a library of material/books and all ..some of it I have ingested and the rest is left
to the voice in my head that "demands" I learn the rest in all keys
these days I compose my own stuff..Im in no hurry to decide when a piece is finished..I use alot of my well practiced lined to see if they fit
some do some dont..I stay with the ones that work
I spent years learning "music" .. I had a guitar god for a teacher..30+ yrs ago..Im still learning his lessons..
I still find new things to learn and use in my playing .. do I feel overwhelmed by all the stuff I dont know (and never will)
naa..I can play alot of tunes I wanted to learn. I understand harmony and theory and can apply it when necessary (that is a big step for many..)
my advice is ..relax !! enjoy what you have learned so far in music..you can only learn so much in a given time frame under "ideal" settings
why do some players seem to "know everything" .. its a secret..they don't
no matter how much we learn ..there will always be an "overwhelming" amount of knowledge waiting to be discovered
again ..relax and enjoy
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It’s simple. Learn songs. Repertoire is everything. It opens up the instrument, it deepens your knowledge of everything on a practical level-harmonic movement, voice-leading, ways of improvising, articulation, phrasing, form, Constance, dissonance, the fingerboard, right-hand technique, left hand technique, left and right hand coordination, scales-vs-arpeggios-vs chromaticism vs enclosures,etc. You name it.
Nobody every accused someone who knows a ton of tunes of being unable to play.
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This is always weird advice for me. You just rattled off a laundry list of things that can be practiced using tunes. Which leaves a person with the same question—what do you work on? Originally Posted by NSJ
Working on stuff if the context of a tune is great idea, but learning music by way of songs is no simpler than learning music writ large.
For example … articulation, voice-leading, ways of improvising … any one of those things is broad and complex enough to take a lifetime.
Don’t mean to be weird. That’s just always been a bit of a pet peeve for me. Just learn tunes. The tunes don’t sound good if you aren’t working on other stuff, and if you’re working on other stuff in the context of a tune, you still have to decide and sort out what to work on.
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Is there anybody around you who'd be interested in just playing music with you? Duo? For fun? For serious fun? Originally Posted by pamosmusic
It's amazing how much the disparate elements come together when you have a practice partner.
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Me personally? Yes. In general, I just think the advice to “just work on tunes” kind of falls into the “practice more” or “listen to the masters” sort of advice. Where it’s an offhand way of describing a process that’s more complicated than it sounds. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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Exactly. In order to “learn tunes”, and in order to squeeze all that long laundry list of goodies from the songs, you’re going to have to know stuff to begin with. Otherwise you’re just putting your fingers where some source tells you they’re supposed to go. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
As Jimmy Bruno says in his Lesson One video on YouTube, you’re going to have to practice basic knowledge before you “just play.”
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