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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    If no one played in tune, that included you. Or did you mean everyone except you were out of tune? Maybe the play book was not on the stand for the show, but just "for show"... (the wrong book)?

    In the music world there are few rules, but I kind of think one of them must be that a musician does not walk out of a gig.


    Funny. Good playing . . . Marinero

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  3. #52

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    So I was asked what's wrong with being a weekend warrior,etc. Actually nothing until the weekend warrior believes he's a pro and is on par with real pros who do this for a living.

    I would never dare to go to anyone's day job and presume I'm as competent at their skill set.Even if I had some basic knowledge of that particular job.
    And that along with the self promo B.S. that's the current trend IS the problem!

    I see posts regularly here with guys promoting themselves as actual musicians. Just because you e memorized a piece of music like a Parrot. It doesn't mean you actually understand it, or able to play it with other musicians.

    As far as new music it really is KINDERGARTEN as far as harmony, rhythm and melody. And as I've stated before, the new Jazzers sound like a technical excersice from their music school ,and swings like it as well.

    Sorry to be so harsh, but after 45 years in the business and this is what it's become is Super Depressing!

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    So I was asked what's wrong with being a weekend warrior,etc. Actually nothing until the weekend warrior believes he's a pro and is on par with real pros who do this for a living.

    If people are willing to pay him enough to pay his rent then he indeed is a pro.


    Can you play on the level of say Howard Roberts? .. If no, does that make you less of a pro? If not where do you draw the line?

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    So I was asked what's wrong with being a weekend warrior,etc. Actually nothing until the weekend warrior believes he's a pro and is on par with real pros who do this for a living.

    I would never dare to go to anyone's day job and presume I'm as competent at their skill set.Even if I had some basic knowledge of that particular job.
    And that along with the self promo B.S. that's the current trend IS the problem!

    I see posts regularly here with guys promoting themselves as actual musicians. Just because you e memorized a piece of music like a Parrot. It doesn't mean you actually understand it, or able to play it with other musicians.

    As far as new music it really is KINDERGARTEN as far as harmony, rhythm and melody. And as I've stated before, the new Jazzers sound like a technical excersice from their music school ,and swings like it as well.

    Sorry to be so harsh, but after 45 years in the business and this is what it's become is Super Depressing!
    This rants sounds like the Reese candy commercial. Come on, no one believes you're really sorry to be so harsh.

    (because someone that is sorry, doesn't keep on doing what they claim to be sorry about, over and over again, just like in the commercial).

  6. #55

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    let me see if this makes sense. A performer plays in fromt of people. But a musician dosent have to, to be one. I don't see where reading music has much to do with either one.

  7. #56

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    Let me phrase this a different way how many of you do this for your main income?
    If not, and you are part time how much of your music income percentage wise goes to pay your mortgage, heating , groceries,etc?

    Also what do you do for your livelihood? And yes I believe this is extremely important to this discussion.

    Thanks!

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    In the music world there are few rules, but I kind of think one of them must be that a musician does not walk out of a gig.
    Have to agree. That's unprofessional.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Let me phrase this a different way how many of you do this for your main income?
    If not, and you are part time how much of your music income percentage wise goes to pay your mortgage, heating , groceries,etc?

    Also what do you do for your livelihood? And yes I believe this is extremely important to this discussion.

    Thanks!
    Oh I see where you're going with this:

    1st class musician: Those who perform and compose un-compromised sophisticated art music as the only source of income and earn 100K+ (no teaching and other BS).

    2nd class musician: Those who perform and create music as the only source of income but have to play crap music at corporate events, weddings etc. but still make 100K+.

    3rd class musician: Like the 2nd class but also has to teach.

    4th class musician: Like the 1st class but poor.

    etc etc etc ...

    How am I doing?
    Last edited by Tal_175; 06-09-2020 at 05:41 PM.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Let me phrase this a different way how many of you do this for your main income?
    If not, and you are part time how much of your music income percentage wise goes to pay your mortgage, heating , groceries,etc?

    Also what do you do for your livelihood? And yes I believe this is extremely important to this discussion.

    Thanks!

    Wrote a long post .. but in the end .. wtf .. nvm


    I dig that it hurts to no longer be in demand after a lifetime of being in demand. But that is life for you .. sucks to be old ... Especially when you're not willing to change your ways.
    Last edited by Lobomov; 06-09-2020 at 07:39 PM.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    No you're not a MUSICIAN because you're competent! There isn't that much demand for musicians any longer. Basically Marinero we have a bunch of wannabes who like to play dress up as a musician. Sorry fellas but the harsh reality is most of you just suck as musicians, and never would have made the grade. I'm not just being mean to put people down. But it's the truth, just like I'm no good at many things as well.

    We now live in a Virtual Reality where you can pretend to be whomever you wish.
    Even President of the United States.
    I for one would rather deal with the reality of knowing where I stand. And in no way am I in the league of Larry Carlton, Joe Pass, Jaco Pastoius, etc. But I was good enough to work for 45 years and make a modest living. It's what I did for a living like any other job.
    There's an awful lot of ego in this post.

    Reading music is not the same skill as making music. The finger pointing at the Moon is not the Moon.

    If you're skilled at woodworking and practice the craft, you're a woodworker. If you've operated a car for thirty years without an accident, you're a good driver. If you write poetry in the privacy of your den, and get the words to say what you want them to say, you're a poet.

    If you're competent at making music, then you're a musician. Your opinion doesn't change the fact that reading music is not the sine qua non of musicianship. I really don't care how many words you capitalize in your responses, either. Think before you post, next time.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Let me phrase this a different way how many of you do this for your main income?
    If not, and you are part time how much of your music income percentage wise goes to pay your mortgage, heating , groceries,etc?

    Also what do you do for your livelihood? And yes I believe this is extremely important to this discussion.

    Thanks!
    Oh, so you meant to write "professional musician"? Why didn't you just do so?

    This is another set of moving goalposts. Protip: when you have to change the premises of your post this regularly, not only are your premises flawed, your thinking is sloppy.

    Your quietbrag is not so quiet as you think. It's actually rather braying.

    Glad you've made a living reading music others have written. Sorry you think that's the requirement for musicianship.

  13. #62

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    So a couple of you who call my posts narcisstic and negative, and I'm unwilling to change. Interesting but I've played very style of music that makes money and then some
    Pop, Jazz Standards, Rock, Blues, Country old and newer, Reggae, Latin, Mexican , Brazilian, Cuban, Worrship old and Praise, Some limited African styles,etc.

    I've played bars , large and small, as well as concerts, and Orchestra Hall, Churhes, Mega, and small. Black and White Christian , Synagogues, festivals big and small
    With National Artists and local artists. Done national and local jingles, National and local acts. T.V. shows and Radio Shows

    I think that's pretty willing to change to earn a living! There comes a time wnen you dont get called because theres a new guard that mainly gets the calls. I did that in my time as well, and replaced someone else. I'm not bitter about younger players taking the work. But it has nothing to do with skills other than looking and willing to hang with the Hip Crowd. Not interested any longer.

    Again I've put my credentials to show where my opinions come from. I'm not an armchair quarterback. That's why I keep asking what do you guys do for a living?
    I would hesitate to be so opinionated if I didn't do this for a living for over 45 years. If I wasn't opinionated by this point, I'd say it would be a miracle. And the same goes for anyone who has worked the same field for over 40 years!

    So what's your story?

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    So a couple of you who call my posts narcisstic and negative, and I'm unwilling to change. Interesting but I've played very style of music that makes money and then some
    Pop, Jazz Standards, Rock, Blues, Country old and newer, Reggae, Latin, Mexican , Brazilian, Cuban, Worrship old and Praise, Some limited African styles,etc.

    I've played bars , large and small, as well as concerts, and Orchestra Hall, Churhes, Mega, and small. Black and White Christian , Synagogues, festivals big and small
    With National Artists and local artists. Done national and local jingles, National and local acts. T.V. shows and Radio Shows

    I think that's pretty willing to change to earn a living!
    That's nice, but none of that qualifies you to pronounce on what it means to practice the art -- not the commerce -- of music. You're sure experienced in the business, but you seem to be mistaking the business of music with the art of making music.

    In an ironic twist, it's pretty much the same complaint you seem to be making about modern musicians.

    Got any clips? I'd love to hear what your artistry encompasses. Let's hear your original music, musician.

    To answer your question, I tried, and failed, to make a living at music. I've written a couple of hundred songs that weren't earth-shaking (probably due to my personal tastes), done some demos and sessions, a bit of gigging between 95 and 2011, and appear to have made much less money than you have. Does that disqualify me as a musician? Or just as a professional musician, which was the point of my last post.

    Too bad we can't just sit down and jam. That tells the truth about musicianship: the ability to listen and integrate into unknown material.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Wrote a long post .. but in the end .. wtf .. nvm...
    Dig. I seem to be doing a lot of that lately.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    Dig. I seem to be doing a lot of that lately.
    It's the best of both worlds .. You get to rant, but don't bother the rest of the forum

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    So a couple of you who call my posts narcisstic and negative, and I'm unwilling to change. Interesting but I've played very style of music that makes money and then some
    The newer music thread is filled with you giving examples of newer music that you're unwilling to play .. and more over it's basically you hating on any piece of music written after 1979 or something like that

    Now you're playing every style of music?

    Or are you just saying that you've played every style of music that made money before 1979?


    I'm an economist not musician . National accounts, value added, public expenditure etc. ... Stuff like that .. Civil servant in government administration


    In my world If you're not making people happy or generating revenue I see your contribution to society as zero and in the end that is the yardstick you're measured by.

    Weekend warriors and even those amateurs that play for free .. Well they are out there playing and making people happy .. so they are actually as a whole more beneficial than you it sounds despite your killer pro toolkit.

  18. #67

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    Just as Ive said in previous posts Amateur Wannabes posting opinions they have little real first hand experience in. As I've said over and over unless you did it for a living for quite a bit of time and had to survive. Which means actually performing with others in various scenarios your an amateur.

    That's fine as well, but without that first hand knowledge your opinions are limited in scope and depth. And wether you admit it or not , you would fail miserably in many musical situations. Just cause you understand theory doesn't mean you apply it well. Just cause you studied reading doesn't mean you can perform under pressure in the studio or live gig.

    Tell you what, I won't advise you on what you actually do for a living. And you guys can quit pretending to be so hip with what you think is real music.
    Funny a couple of you wont even post what your occupation really is. I'm not making fun of anyone for making a living at doing whatever.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Just as Ive said in previous posts Amateur Wannabes posting opinions they have little real first hand experience in. As I've said over and over unless you did it for a living for quite a bit of time and had to survive. Which means actually performing with others in various scenarios your an amateur.

    That's fine as well, but without that first hand knowledge your opinions are limited in scope and depth. And wether you admit it or not , you would fail miserably in many musical situations. Just cause you understand theory doesn't mean you apply it well. Just cause you studied reading doesn't mean you can perform under pressure in the studio or live gig.

    Tell you what, I won't advise you on what you actually do for a living. And you guys can quit pretending to be so hip with what you think is real music.
    Funny a couple of you wont even post what your occupation really is. I'm not making fun of anyone for making a living at doing whatever.
    I can't tell if you are a troll or someone who is projecting in retrospect your disappointment with the "official" credentials of theory and reading.

  20. #69

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    I have had world class players be complimentary about my playing (saying, perhaps, more about their graciousness than my skills). I've also had local guys who rarely gig be insulting.

    We're all musicians at different levels. Disparaging somebody else ... well, what does that really say?

  21. #70

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    Shoot this thread, already.

  22. #71

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    Again what do you guys do for a living? You seem to be reluctant to answer the question ? I'm not judging people who are amateurs , just those who act like they are pros when they have no experience.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Just as Ive said in previous posts Amateur Wannabes posting opinions they have little real first hand experience in. As I've said over and over unless you did it for a living for quite a bit of time and had to survive. Which means actually performing with others in various scenarios your an amateur.

    That's fine as well, but without that first hand knowledge your opinions are limited in scope and depth. And wether you admit it or not , you would fail miserably in many musical situations. Just cause you understand theory doesn't mean you apply it well. Just cause you studied reading doesn't mean you can perform under pressure in the studio or live gig.

    Tell you what, I won't advise you on what you actually do for a living. And you guys can quit pretending to be so hip with what you think is real music.
    Funny a couple of you wont even post what your occupation really is. I'm not making fun of anyone for making a living at doing whatever.
    Janitor.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57

    Tell you what, I won't advise you on what you actually do for a living. And you guys can quit pretending to be so hip with what you think is real music.
    Oh dear me jads .. I never advised you or anyone with regards how to make a living. I've judged what you do for a living. Which is something entirely something else.

    How can I do that? .. I can because I and schmucks like me are the ones that fed you for all those years as an musician that you're so proud of .. Which you blatantly ignore.

    Anyways ... Bullshit walks and money talks .. If you've stopped paying your rent with your craft then you're no longer a pro and if you still are then why are you complaining so much then?


    Cheers Jads!
    Last edited by Lobomov; 06-10-2020 at 03:23 AM.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov

    How can I do that? .. I can because I and schmucks like me are the ones that fed you for all those years as an musician that you're so proud of .. Which you blatantly ignore.
    no need to bad-mouth a whole profession just because of one troll.

    pros like me work hard for their living and do not need to be fed by schmucks.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    no need to bad-mouth a whole profession just because of one troll.

    pros like me work hard for their living and do not need to be fed by schmucks.

    Just an attempt to lighten things up a bit .. originally I wrote people, but given Jads tone of disgust vs. the non-professionals here I went with schmucks thus entering his world of reference.


    But that being said we do agree that your hard work means little without the people that consume it, right?

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Just an attempt to lighten things up a bit .. originally I wrote people, but given Jads tone of disgust vs. the non-professionals here I went with schmucks thus entering his world of reference.
    so we musicians are "fed" by people? are you sure you're an economist?

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    so we musicians are "fed" by people? are you sure you're an economist?

    Yeah ... Supply and demand. If there is no demand for what you're offering then you get no work no matter how hard you work. If you are not offering something meaningful then you don't sell.

    That is how a business work. The money of your customers is what pays your rent. If the service you offer isn't something that they find use for then you go to bed hungry.

    May I ask what it is that you offer that sets you apart from every single other business? We do agree that you run a business as professional musician?

    To take an example taking up guitar is a better business decision than taking up the theremin even tho both involve being a musician

  29. #78

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    Can’t understand why the theremin isn’t more popular.


  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    So a couple of you who call my posts narcisstic and negative, and I'm unwilling to change. Interesting but I've played very style of music that makes money and then some
    Pop, Jazz Standards, Rock, Blues, Country old and newer, Reggae, Latin, Mexican , Brazilian, Cuban, Worrship old and Praise, Some limited African styles,etc.

    I've played bars , large and small, as well as concerts, and Orchestra Hall, Churhes, Mega, and small. Black and White Christian , Synagogues, festivals big and small
    With National Artists and local artists. Done national and local jingles, National and local acts. T.V. shows and Radio Shows

    I think that's pretty willing to change to earn a living! There comes a time wnen you dont get called because theres a new guard that mainly gets the calls. I did that in my time as well, and replaced someone else. I'm not bitter about younger players taking the work. But it has nothing to do with skills other than looking and willing to hang with the Hip Crowd. Not interested any longer.

    Again I've put my credentials to show where my opinions come from. I'm not an armchair quarterback. That's why I keep asking what do you guys do for a living?
    I would hesitate to be so opinionated if I didn't do this for a living for over 45 years. If I wasn't opinionated by this point, I'd say it would be a miracle. And the same goes for anyone who has worked the same field for over 40 years!

    So what's your story?
    It doesn't sound like you are much of a jazz guitarist. By jazz I mean small combo gigs with pro level jazz musicians. Am I right?
    Last edited by Tal_175; 06-10-2020 at 06:29 AM.

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Yeah ... Supply and demand. If there is no demand for what you're offering then you get no work no matter how hard you work. If you are not offering something meaningful then you don't sell.
    i understand the principle of supply and demand, but just a second ago you said that musicians are being fed by society, by people like you?

    my wife, the economy professor, assures me that "being fed" and "supply and demand" are not the same thing. your posts are very confusing...

  32. #81

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    You're mixing up two things, but I'm sure your name dropped wife and I can reach agreement.

    The society comment is separate from the getting fed comment., so those are two unrelated things.


    With regards to getting fed.
    You can off course be fed by your high salary wife and just sit in your own bubble playing music or depending on where you live you can go down to the unemployment office and get money from the government and thus don't die from hunger.

    But in general your business runs on the mercy of your customers. If you don't provide utility to them then they don't pay you. Your musical prowess and ability means nothing on it's own. It's worthless if no one likes it and thus are willing to pay for for the right to enjoy it.

    Jads is stuck in his pre-1979 musical world and looks down on current musicians that play simpler music. But thing is that they're the ones making people happy and that is what is important. Not whether their music grooves or is complex. You don't have to do popular work off course, just as long as you have enough customers to make sure you get by.


    So to sum up .. The getting fed comment is livid language designed to drive home the point that without it's customers a business is nothing. Will you dispute that or are you claiming to be something other than a business?




    Society
    That was a different context all together. But the thing is this. All the complaints here are musician vs. musician .. skill vs. skill. There was dissing of weekend warriors and amateurs .. They are not real musicians it was claimed.


    But the thing is that if you look at society as a whole the way I see it is this:


    If the free market decides that an amateur should have a gig at a local bar instead of a pro, it actually means that the surplus generated for society as a whole is bigger with the amateur playing that gig for free than with the pro getting paid for it. I'm sure your wife will agree


    Jads (and many more here) claim that society suffers from being run over by amateurs and hacks .. But perhaps it's actually the opposite?

    Sure sure, plenty of cases where the free market fails, but I'm curious if your wife will stand behind an argument claiming that the bar/music venue scene is one of them. I doubt it.


    But please .. I'd love to hear from your wife. If she has the time, by all means it would be great fun to have her join in here

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Again what do you guys do for a living? You seem to be reluctant to answer the question ? I'm not judging people who are amateurs , just those who act like they are pros when they have no experience.
    All pros started as amateurs. The Latin root for amateur is "amas"; in English, love. As I have 10 years on you as a professional musician AND performer and sometime teacher at some major music schools, I'm afraid your rant is not taking into account the thousands of young "amateurs" who are becoming tomorrow's professionals in the music industry. Performers, producers, engineers, composers, arrangers, conductors, etc.

    There is a surplus of young talents vying for fewer and fewer performer opportunities, and your complaints about them not swinging is absolute rubbish. You're a miserable curmudgeon, making yourself more unhappy as you give up and give in to your negativity. I have 55 years on the boards, and my audiences often include a table full of young guitarists coming to catch a little of what we pros do and how we do it, as well as old codgers looking to hear melodic, passionate, swinging versions of their favorite tunes. You have closed your mind, that's a real shame. By the way, it's now the 21st century. You should join us here.

  34. #83

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    I was a CPA, had to work really hard and long hours for decades at something I didn't enjoy much, that's why it's called work. I'm retired, finacialy secure, won't have to be a parasite feeding from the government troughs. So what, why does any of that matter? Are you happy now jads57?

  35. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by JaxJaxon
    let me see if this makes sense. A performer plays in fromt of people. But a musician dosent have to, to be one. I don't see where reading music has much to do with either one.
    Hi, J,
    So, using your logic, how long would it take a new/prospective member of a group(performer) ,who doesn't read music, to learn their repertoire if the band does 3-45 minute sets of music(no repeats)? And, what if some are originals? I've known a few musicians in my life, mostly pianists, who can play hundreds of songs from memory. I've never been in that class. I need the charts.
    Secondly, I'm certain there are some "musicians" who don't perform and play for their own pleasure. However, it is a natural instinct when one achieves an advanced level of musicianship that they WANT TO PERFORM. Don't ask for the psychology of this other than it is a natural sequence of events. Thanks for your reply.
    Good playing . . . Marinero

  36. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Have to agree. That's unprofessional.
    Yes, largely true . . .but you'd have to be THERE to understand my decision. It was like a scene out of Blue Velvet. Good playing . . . Marinero

  37. #86
    "1st class musician: Those who perform and compose un-compromised sophisticated art music as the only source of income and earn 100K+ (no teaching and other BS)." Tal

    Hi, T,
    100K for a Jazzer? This certainly must be in an alternate reality! Remember Bobby Broom's great letter to JGF lamenting his inability to even make a living playing music? How many here play at his level and have his experience?
    Good playing . . . Marinero

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "1st class musician: Those who perform and compose un-compromised sophisticated art music as the only source of income and earn 100K+ (no teaching and other BS)." Tal

    Hi, T,
    100K for a Jazzer? This certainly must be in an alternate reality! Remember Bobby Broom's great letter to JGF lamenting his inability to even make a living playing music? How many here play at his level and have his experience?
    Good playing . . . Marinero
    Well that post was meant to show the absurdity of implying such hierarchies in the context of a separate discussion.

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero

    100K for a Jazzer? This certainly must be in an alternate reality! Remember Bobby Broom's great letter to JGF lamenting his inability to even make a living playing music? How many here play at his level and have his experience?
    Good playing . . . Marinero
    At least two of the ones pictured here


  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    So to sum up .. The getting fed comment is livid language designed to drive home the point that without it's customers a business is nothing. Will you dispute that or are you claiming to be something other than a business?
    well, since "getting fed" and "competing on the free market" are pretty much opposites, "livid" is not really the first term that comes to mind. but do carry on.

  41. #90
    "Too bad we can't just sit down and jam. That tells the truth about musicianship: the ability to listen and integrate into unknown material." Thump

    Hi, T,
    So, for the sake of argument, would you use that standard for, say, Vladimir Horowitz, Andre Segovia, Pablo Casals,or Itzhak Pearlman? And, would that tell you their level of musicianship? Let's sit down and jam? Good playing . . . Marinero

  42. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    At least two of the ones pictured here


    Hi, L,
    And what percentage of working musicians does he represent? Certainly less than 1% unless, of course, you talking about rockers. Good playing . . . Marinero

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    well, since "getting fed" and "competing on the free market" are pretty much opposites, "livid" is not really the first term that comes to mind. but do carry on.
    How cool .. You use the old honored technique of focusing on semantics to skip over the two concrete statements that I made, so I take it that you agree with them .. Btw love your use of "Carry on" adding power and class to the evasion!

    Say hello to wife tho .. sounds like you've been blessed there
    Last edited by Lobomov; 06-10-2020 at 11:22 AM.

  44. #93

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    Yeah, Metheny doesn't really count.

    He kind of got in at the right time as well, though....

    I'd be interested to know how things work out for him at the moment. I suspect the money is much tighter, if what Scott Henderson etc are saying applies to him. IIRC Scott said he basically tours for fun, there's not much profit in it...

    Successful musicians are getting squeezed on tours because the income from recordings isn't there any more. I don't want to play into 'the Boomers had it easy' narrative... It wasn't easy... but it was easier to make money playing music in that generation if you negotiated the hurdles and issues. If you set yourself up right then you are sitting pretty now. If you assumed the money would flow in forever, I think you are pretty much screwed now.

    Music is more democratised now - very easy to record etc - but the flip side is its much harder to make money passively. The answer for pretty much everyone is - internet. Why do you think so many top players have done online courses? Why is Leland Sklar doing vlogs, do you think?

    Things change. A professional musician has to adapt to the environment to earn living. The industry is undergoing a HUGE realignment right now for obvious reasons. The likely result is that even more of it will shift online.

    Take the top players of today. I think they couldn't make it to that Metheny tier. The circuit, distribution and recording revenue no longer exists as it did in the late 70s. I don't think anyone's making that type of money in jazz ATM. The (steady) money is in education.

    Might be wrong, but that's the impression I get.

    It's telling how little of this thread has focussed on the fact that to be playing music professionally, you need a really broad set of skills (and be content to put up with the bullshit - 'Metheny drove the tour car', should be a saying) as much as being able to play really well. It's almost like a lot of people have no experience trying to play music for a living, or any friends that do.

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yeah, Metheny doesn't really count.

    I was actually thinking of the entire lot especially Sanchez, which is why I didn't post just a picture of only Metheny, tho I admit they are piggybacking Metheny's 70s and 80s success


    Note that I've switched from my more trollish persona to genuine curiosity


    Does yearly income for people like Julian Lage, Kurt or more commonly seen players names like Larry Goldings, Joshua Redman, Brad Melhdau really sit below 100k? .. I mean 100k is a lot, but not in the land of the insanely rich or anything .. over here that is around 12% of all people aged over 14.


    But more seriously ... If I'm to think of a real life example then a professor (whatever that is called in english) at one of our universities will sit just shy of 100k, with most of them doing stuff on the side too. Off course where talking only a handful of people as jazz education is almost non-existing here, but we're nowhere near Metheny fame and unlike here the US seems to have a non-small jazz academia?

  46. #95

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    Christian,

    You're giving me flashbacks of 4pm weekday load-ins for a 10pm gig. I think the band got paid $25 TOTAL and they acted like they were doing us a favor.

    All part of why I'm not a professional musician.

  47. #96

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    I am just a guitar-playing pensioner.

    Musician or Performer(?) Rant-109be752-75f9-4d25-a793-5cf40aebe831-jpg

  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    I was actually thinking of the entire lot especially Sanchez, which is why I didn't post just a picture of only Metheny, tho I admit they are piggybacking Metheny's 70s and 80s success


    Note that I've switched from my more trollish persona to genuine curiosity


    Does yearly income for people like Julian Lage, Kurt or more commonly seen players names like Larry Goldings, Joshua Redman, Brad Melhdau really sit below 100k? .. I mean 100k is a lot, but not in the land of the insanely rich or anything .. over here that is around 12% of all people aged over 14.


    But more seriously ... If I'm to think of a real life example then a professor (whatever that is called in english) at one of our universities will sit just shy of 100k, with most of them doing stuff on the side too. Off course where talking only a handful of people as jazz education is almost non-existing here, but we're nowhere near Metheny fame and unlike here the US seems to have a non-small jazz academia?
    100k is not that unusual, my friend's daughter is two years out of college with an undergraduate degree, is an RN (registered nurse) and with her overtime pay is making about 100K, and there is somewhere around 3 million RN's in the U.S.

    I tried to make a living at music in the late 70s early 80s, working that hard to scrape by at or near the poverty level makes absolutely no sense to me. I didn't enjoy the hassle of being in and out of gigging bands anyways, I think grinding away as a CPA is more enjoyable than that. Do I respect musicians that make it as a professional musician, maybe a little. Do I respect nurses more, absolutely.
    Attached Images Attached Images Musician or Performer(?) Rant-rn-jpg 

  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    I was actually thinking of the entire lot especially Sanchez, which is why I didn't post just a picture of only Metheny, tho I admit they are piggybacking Metheny's 70s and 80s success


    Note that I've switched from my more trollish persona to genuine curiosity


    Does yearly income for people like Julian Lage, Kurt or more commonly seen players names like Larry Goldings, Joshua Redman, Brad Melhdau really sit below 100k? .. I mean 100k is a lot, but not in the land of the insanely rich or anything .. over here that is around 12% of all people aged over 14.


    But more seriously ... If I'm to think of a real life example then a professor (whatever that is called in english) at one of our universities will sit just shy of 100k, with most of them doing stuff on the side too. Off course where talking only a handful of people as jazz education is almost non-existing here, but we're nowhere near Metheny fame and unlike here the US seems to have a non-small jazz academia?
    i don’t think I actually know what 100K is in US terms.

    It is certainly possible for a established pro with high end teaching and good session gigs to earn 60K GBP, which may or may not be equivalent. (That’s a pretty decent annual income.) But that’s someone with a uni teaching gig.

    I have no idea. Also US incomes don’t seem to scale to UK incomes by exchange rate.

    100K looks like a lot, but might be fairly normal for a 9-5 in the US.

  50. #99

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    [...]
    Last edited by Lobomov; 06-10-2020 at 03:46 PM.

  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    Christian,

    You're giving me flashbacks of 4pm weekday load-ins for a 10pm gig. I think the band got paid $25 TOTAL and they acted like they were doing us a favor.

    All part of why I'm not a professional musician.
    there are better gigs than this... ;-)

    but yeah not missing the general grind of functions season in terms of the faff. Money on the other hand :-(