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This is a confession: I tried to like the kind of jazz standards that everyone seems to adore for decades, the standards that are based on musicals or other 40s and 50s popular songs, the Real Book variety. But honestly, songs like Misty sound just cheesy to me. "Close your eyes and a thousand violins begin to play" – once you know the line you can never unhear it. But even songs that stay a bit further away from Kitsch just bore me to dead with the stereotype modulations of functional harmony that all of them use. And whatever the arrangement may try and how innovative the interpretation may be – I just can't listen to it for more then a few minutes.
I like modal jazz, soul jazz, funk jazz, latin jazz and the bluesy, rootsy stuff though.
I hope it is OK to stay in the forum though I'll never feel inspired to discuss Stella By Starlight?
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05-17-2020 03:17 AM
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It's not the tune, it's what you do with it.
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But you see how it looks - however modal, soulful, funky, latin, bluesy or rootsy it was, if it was called Stella by Starlight you automatically wouldn't like it... so that's that!
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It’s. “Walk my way
And a thousand violins begin to play”
Far less cheesy
like what you like, it’s all good. I think that’s it good to let the standards inform your playing though
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The post-bop, hard bop and modal thing was a big departure from bebop covers of show tunes and contrafacts. It's no secret that Mile's Kind Of Blue tapped into a big audience for jazz that wasn't focused on that chasing the chord changes bebop manifesto.
I am very drawn to the era of the jazz composer, Mingus, Miles, Shorter, Hancock, etc., and beyond, vs the Great American Songbook. The approaches to harmony are more modern and geared to a more personal approach to concepts and application.
However...those that choose to ignore the vocab and practices developed by bebop do so at the peril of not sounding "authentic" as you try to tell your story with a path that takes you back and forth between consonance and dissonance, tension and release. It is still fundamentally essential as basic vocab.
I do remember when mainstream straight ahead jazz was very progressive, and then the "young lions" thing happened with Wynton and his peers, and bam, people went back to the jazz museum and started rehashing old jazz again and it slowed the progressive stuff down a bit, IMO. Jazz academia seemed to become a force in the music.
Nobody masters all of jazz, and the individualism of the genre dictates we choose the path that best satisfies our creative appetite, but important to know the tradition.
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When I first got into jazz, I only really liked the modal Coltrane/Blue Note stuff and Kind Of Blue at first, or anything with few chord changes e.g. Wes playing a minor blues. I think it was because it sounded more like the rock stuff I had been playing.
I found bebop and standards quite ‘corny’ sounding at first. But eventually I began to get into them too, especially after hearing melodic players like Chet Baker playing them.
It’s ok to like or dislike any of it.
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There's a difference between playing them and listening to them. Listening to the GASB can be a bit dull but, when one gets into trying to get round the changes, it's a whole new ball game. I think that's probably what attracts players to them.
I mean, this first one would probably bore the pants off a lot of people (especially the OP) but if the other two do then I don't know... no bleedin' taste :-)
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It's totally cool ....
do you like soul music ?
it has functional changes quite often
more Morden standards .... Stevie wonder ?
jut interested
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Originally Posted by guavajelly
I’m not snobby about the jazz thing TBH but I get annoyed when I have a student that doesn’t know any songs to play, especially if they have scales and chops coming out their ears.
I’m like ‘what is the point of you?’
This hasn’t got anything to do with jazz to me, it’s just being a musician. Teach me a new song, I’ll teach you one. Could be something you wrote. I don’t mind. Everything else is kind of bullshit. But we’ll find some common ground. Doesn’t need to be Jerome Kern...
In the end Ive ended up a bit of a standards junky just because those tunes seem much more versatile compositions than modern jazz tunes. Also I work with people who want to play and sing them.
with modern jazz tunes there’s a risk you end up covering the record rather then playing a song in your style.... that seems a bit lame and Aebersold Book to me.
I also dig people who have their ears out for modern pop songs they can play in a new and interesting way.
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Life would be boring if we only associated with those who shared our every view.
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Ragman makes a good point about playing v. listening. I don’t like hearing Misty much, but if I try and work out a lush chord melody version on the guitar, it suddenly gets a lot more interesting and I start to like the tune a bit more!
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Originally Posted by guavajelly
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Yea, listing to some of the original recordings of someone singing a II\V\I centric type jazz standard can sound cheesy. But as Rag said, it is about what a musician does with such a song.
E.g. here is Howard Roberts playing Gone With the Wind; a song with a very basic use of functional harmony:
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There’s a lot you can do to change standards. I like the way Jesse Van Ruller plays this one (End Of A Love Affair) incorporating a kind of modal vamp to make it more interesting.
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Jazz Po-lice are watching...
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Jazz Po-lice are watching...
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I played in a guitar due for years and we did the "book" ..now it was a good way to learn those tunes..I liked the melodies far more than the lyrics..
now you can re-harmonize most any tune and change its character alot..along with an altered melody you can mold and remake juat about any tune just they way you like it..
when you study contempory players and song writers the "rules" for harmonic and melodic creatiion seem to have been left far behind...and sudden twists and turns have replaced them..
"Rock" music by its very nature allowed "non-musicians" to play and write tunes they defied any harmonic logic..thus making someone that could only play 6 chords become a pop icon
the standards and their traditional harmonic formats have given way to standards of the 60's and 70's by the Beatles Paul Simon Billy Joel The Beach Boys and todays more
computer generated groups
but you can use traditional harmony in some new and creative ways ..like the blues if you can disguise it a bit..like the tune Peg by Steely Dan- (12 bar format...)
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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Originally Posted by guavajelly
You know Blue Moon? Hate it right?
Check out the bridge.... ii-7 V7 I in C...that's fine.
Modulate up minor third... ii-7 V7 I in Eb cool...you've just put the listener through a 2-5-1 in Ebmaj7... ok but Eb6 works like Ebmaj7 too. So play that...but wait invert that with the 6 in the base...looks like a C-7 to me...and you too.
So really you've driven the listener to C-7 via a 2-5-1 in Eb...AND THAT CHORD APPEARS IN THREE KEYS.
So now the diva sings..." and then suddenly appears before me...the only one my heart could ever hold" ( you play D-9 Bo7 C6/9 or something ).
Then she sings..."I heard somebody say 'Please adore me' " and the chart says F-7 Bb7 Ebmaj7 ( but you play Bb-9 Go7 Ab6 well...because you're cool now).
Or try a 2-5-1 in Bb...but don't do any of this in a group.
OK sorry guys...it's cocktail hour for over an hour now.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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Sure! Welcome to the Forum, there are many folk here, each with an opinion of where jazz begins and where jazz ends. Most understand there can be differences in said opinion, and a few don't allow any room for dissent....There's always room for one more.
Depending on your goals and opportunities, you may never need to deal with a 32-bar, modulates at the bridge American Songbook old chestnut. Or you might eventually find a need to dive into the song form as your goals and opportunities evolve. Who knows? I don't think it's possible for anyone to cover all genres, styles and subsets of jazz, it makes sense to stake out your own personal artistic territory. On the other hand, I have reaped direct and indirect benefit from playing styles of music I didn't particularly like... Best wishes for your music!
PK
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Like what you like. Play whatever you like. Jazz is a very big tent.
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Albert Ayler liked a standard or two, but functional harmony wasn't his thing.
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... in order for George Costanza to become the "Opposite of George", he first had to live a lifetime being the old, regular George...
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
KA PAF info please
Today, 11:52 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos