Which is harder, high level piano or high level guitar?

[vintagelove]

I don't know much about classical guitar so won't criticize this guys playing on a technical or even a musical level but from a performance standpoint those right hand flourishes at the beginning of the piece ain't gettin' it in 2016. Maybe back in the day when people were wearing powdered wigs, but not now. Maybe in some parts of the world they still do wear powdered wigs but this cowboy ain't buyin' it. IM(somewhat arrogant)O he's milking it.

There is just so much wrong with this, but I will simply offer these were not powdered wig people.


Btw that's not the beginning of the piece, that like 17 minutes in. The video simply starts there.

[mr. beaumont]

Classical guitar needs more windmills, imho.

[christianm77]

Yeah I found that flourishy thing he was doing to be a bit annoying and 'put on'. But y'know whatever, everyone does their own thing. Rock and roll!

I also get annoyed by all that moving around Chris Thile does - I find it more distracting and irritating than expressive. But the man can play, obviously.

I dislike signs of this type of thing in my own and other people's performances - looks stiff, nervous and weird. Stay still dammit!
Loads of people disagree.

Sometimes it can be cool though. Jimi Hendrix was cool at moving. Dizzy Gillespie too. I suppose it helps if there is some fluidity, grace and naturalness to the movement.

[mrcee]

There is just so much wrong with this, but I will simply offer these were not powdered wig people.


Btw that's not the beginning of the piece, that like 17 minutes in. The video simply starts there.

Thanks for the correction on the start time but I still stand with my opinion that the flourishes are BS. I humbly admit that I could be wrong about everything else.

[mrcee]

Yeah I found that flourishy thing he was doing to be a bit annoying and 'put on'. But y'know whatever, everyone does their own thing. Rock and roll!

I also get annoyed by all that moving around Chris Thile does - I find it more distracting and irritating than expressive. But the man can play, obviously.

I dislike signs of this type of thing in my own and other people's performances - looks stiff, nervous and weird. Stay still dammit!
Loads of people disagree.

Sometimes it can be cool though. Jimi Hendrix was cool at moving. Dizzy Gillespie too. I suppose it helps if there is some fluidity, grace and naturalness to the movement.

Very true. Everyone does their own thing: I'm OK you're OK, if it feels good do it, it's all good, everything is everything,
koo kook a joob.

[vintagelove]

Thanks for the correction on the start time but I still stand with my opinion that the flourishes are BS. I humbly admit that I could be wrong about everything else.

Please give me a time marking on these offending flourishes. In the meantime, please check out these time marks and tell me this isn't some of the most amazing guitar playing you've ever seen.



Here are a couple mind blowers, vid 3 21:12 just blew my mind...15:03, 18:10, 25:45, 27:55-28:18 my favorite moment)


https://youtube.com/watch?ebc=ANyPxKpgzkgq-U4cQsGO2-yhSoRRenEhS_XINI-L17lHj9D_8zJKji0pjdZ8jEu0SQRhP1XEIuK1G5BlW1LTu9V0J 4GFYYCJ7g&v=OwmljH41B1Q



Would someone mind telling me how to embed a video. Thanks

[princeplanet]

Hey, I stated this thread, and I think a lot of very interesting thoughts have been brought up, but no one has addressed the above, you all skipped over it. Jazz pianists may be better musicians than most other instrumentalists. Do you dare to disagree? Is being a better musician harder than not being a better musician?

OK, seeing that you guys wanna talk about other stuff, I'll argue against my own post ....

Hmm.... so how about considering that the guitar takes so much more unrewarded effort than the piano (at advanced levels at least) as an argument to make that the guitar is harder to master? 10,000 quality hours from a highly talented player gets you less reward as a guitar player compared to the same effort on piano. 4 years at a music conservatory yields more impressive results (to the average listener) for the piano player, over the guitar player.

So, we can work equally hard, just to end up sounding less impressive. Therefor, in order to sound equally impressive, the guitar is harder work

Reductionism?. Or Sophistry?

[mrcee]

OK, seeing that you guys wanna talk about other stuff, I'll argue against my own post ....

Hmm.... so how about considering that the guitar takes so much more unrewarded effort than the piano (at advanced levels at least) as an argument to make that the guitar is harder to master? 10,000 quality hours from a highly talented player gets you less reward as a guitar player compared to the same effort on piano. 4 years at a music conservatory yields more impressive results (to the average listener) for the piano player, over the guitar player.

So, we can work equally hard, just to end up sounding less impressive. Therefor, in order to sound equally impressive, the guitar is harder work

Reductionism?. Or Sophistry?

I agree that in order to sound equally impressive the guitar is harder work.

[Vladan]

... Pianists I know are better at hearing, better at transcription, better at discerning rhythm, better at hearing bass lines, better at composition, even better at singing, or can improvise vocally better than other instrumentalists I know. Generally speaking, and based on my own limited observations, granted...

After reading this paragraph, I'm off to teach my self some piano. It's kinda the next best thing after menstrual pads with wings.



Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube

[mrcee]

Please give me a time marking on these offending flourishes. In the meantime, please check out these time marks and tell me this isn't some of the most amazing guitar playing you've ever seen.



Here are a couple mind blowers, vid 3 21:12 just blew my mind...15:03, 18:10, 25:45, 27:55-28:18 my favorite moment)


https://youtube.com/watch?ebc=ANyPxKpgzkgq-U4cQsGO2-yhSoRRenEhS_XINI-L17lHj9D_8zJKji0pjdZ8jEu0SQRhP1XEIuK1G5BlW1LTu9V0J 4GFYYCJ7g&v=OwmljH41B1Q



Would someone mind telling me how to embed a video. Thanks

I'm not sure that we're referring to the same video. In this one the flourishes are right at the start. Which seems to me to be the beginning of the piece. I still feel that it makes him look like an immature musician and takes away from his virtuosity. Other than that I don't think that I'm qualified to pass much judgment on a classical player. He's obviously a great player, but just not for my taste. He just looks and sounds like he's making too big a deal out it. I'm reminded of Hal Galper's advice to keep emotion out of playing. I posted before about seeing Sly and the Family Stone when they first started. I got to sit in on their rehearsals and remember today, 50 years later, Sly in the middle of a vamp saying into the mic to Jerry Martini the tenor sax man: "Be cool Jerry... Be cool". There is such a thing as being too cool for school though. A lot of amateur and semi pro singers can be guilty of just milking the emotional element to much. Sentimentality can be a deal killer for art. Sort of like having too much fun.

[vintagelove]

I'm not sure that we're referring to the same video. In this one the flourishes are right at the start. Which seems to me to be the beginning of the piece. I still feel that it makes him look like an immature musician and takes away from his virtuosity. Other than that I don't think that I'm qualified to pass much judgment on a classical player. He's obviously a great player, but just not for my taste. He just looks and sounds like he's making too big a deal out it. I'm reminded of Hal Galper's advice to keep emotion out of playing. I posted before about seeing Sly and the Family Stone when they first started. I got to sit in on their rehearsals and remember today, 50 years later, Sly in the middle of a vamp saying into the mic to Jerry Martini the tenor sax man: "Be cool Jerry... Be cool". There is such a thing as being too cool for school though. A lot of amateur and semi pro singers can be guilty of just milking the emotional element to much. Sentimentality can be a deal killer for art. Sort of like having too much fun.

That video I posted is the whole piece.


Just one thing, whatever flourishes you're talking about. Those are the notes in the score. Sometimes when you're trying to translate a whole orchestral work onto a guitar with 4 fingers and 6 strings, especially in parts that are supposed to be ugly, supposed to invoke unpleasant feelings, the limitations of the instrument make in not as effective a tool as the orchestra.

But the notes are the notes, and the rhythms are the rhythms.


Btw, none of this is to say anyone has to like him. It's just to help understand his genius.

[mr. beaumont]

The flourishes he's talking about have nothing to do with notes.

But if they were written in the score, that'd be pretty cool.

[mrcee]

I may not have been clear when referring to flourishes. I meant the big Pete Townshend like windmill arm swing that he uses to strike the opening chords. To me it looks rinky dink. He's too good a player to be doing showboat stuff like that.
But I don't know much about classical guitar so maybe that's not uncommon.

[vintagelove]

Smdh...

[Vladan]

I may not have been clear when referring to flourishes. I meant the big Pete Townshend like windmill arm swing that he uses to strike the opening chords. To me it looks rinky dink. He's too good a player to be doing showboat stuff like that.
But I don't know much about classical guitar so maybe that's not uncommon.

Seems to be quite popular move, guess it adds to "the feeling" at posh audience. Like some I know have bought sunshield caps to look more "artistic"

VladanMovies BlogSpot

[grahambop]

The flourishes he's talking about have nothing to do with notes.

But if they were written in the score, that'd be pretty cool.

1st bar is marked 'mulino a vento', check it out.

[mrcee]

1st bar is marked 'mulino a vento', check it out.

Well I'll be damned! I guess it's stuff like that that's the reason I'm not much into classical music. I guess we've made some progress over the centuries. imho. They used to think you could cure diseases with leeches, and that powdered wigs looked good.

[wolflen]

mrcee:

"Well I'll be damned! I guess it's stuff like that that's the reason I'm not much into classical music. I guess we've made some progress over the centuries. imho. They used to think you could cure diseases with leeches, and that powdered wigs looked good. "


"..progress is our most important product.." Ronald Reagan spokesperson for General Electric''..

as with anything that can be measured in any way..conclusions vary..even the atomic clock needs to be adjusted..

the term "better" may and does cause much stress in communication on all levels of perception .. in general our fragile ego has an eternal need to be right even in the face of fact that it is wrong..it get out of hand-to use a gentle term-for the destruction this behavior manifests..

though I have not personally met any of you on this forum..I would say..not bet-life taught me not too-Bill Evans can play piano better than any one here.. Steve Vai can play guitar better than anyone here..

so..can Bill Evans play piano better than Steve Vai plays guitar...

to even ponder the possibilities-you have to take a side..and one is better than the other..what are you using to measure..your senses are imperfect and very limited..factors like..taste and style are ever changing..inconsistent and contradictory .. you may not like something on Monday..learn something about the subject on Tuesday review it again on Wednesday and love it on Thursday and feel those that don't agree with you on Friday are limited in many ways..

(man and/or woman:---: but 10 minutes ago..you said you liked that restaurant. Now you think it is awful..??)-the variations on this theme are endless..ask any one who is married..

as for logic being the ultimate factor in many decisions...watch any TV commercials lately..or any of the last 50 years ??

[christianm77]

1st bar is marked 'mulino a vento', check it out.

The internet has a victor, and it is you.

[christianm77]

mrcee:

"Well I'll be damned! I guess it's stuff like that that's the reason I'm not much into classical music. I guess we've made some progress over the centuries. imho. They used to think you could cure diseases with leeches, and that powdered wigs looked good. "


"..progress is our most important product.." Ronald Reagan spokesperson for General Electric''..

as with anything that can be measured in any way..conclusions vary..even the atomic clock needs to be adjusted..

the term "better" may and does cause much stress in communication on all levels of perception .. in general our fragile ego has an eternal need to be right even in the face of fact that it is wrong..it get out of hand-to use a gentle term-for the destruction this behavior manifests..

though I have not personally met any of you on this forum..I would say..not bet-life taught me not too-Bill Evans can play piano better than any one here.. Steve Vai can play guitar better than anyone here..

so..can Bill Evans play piano better than Steve Vai plays guitar...

to even ponder the possibilities-you have to take a side..and one is better than the other..what are you using to measure..your senses are imperfect and very limited..factors like..taste and style are ever changing..inconsistent and contradictory .. you may not like something on Monday..learn something about the subject on Tuesday review it again on Wednesday and love it on Thursday and feel those that don't agree with you on Friday are limited in many ways..

(man and/or woman:---: but 10 minutes ago..you said you liked that restaurant. Now you think it is awful..??)-the variations on this theme are endless..ask any one who is married..

as for logic being the ultimate factor in many decisions...watch any TV commercials lately..or any of the last 50 years ??

Very good points.

I mean as far as 'Vai is better than me' - well yes, but it's a wonderfully absurd example... There are so many vectors to evaluate a player. I mean how's his acoustic projection ;-) (And who cares?)

Can you compare Bill Evans to Vai, well that's an interesting question. I daresay people who are into both are not going to be making comparisons? But then can we make comparisons between Bill Evans to Keith Jarrett, say?

So yes, point well made, 'better' is a stupid term.

Classical guitar is somewhat narrower in that you have about 12 pieces which everyone plays, and even then some people like this approach or that approach.

[princeplanet]

After reading this paragraph, I'm off to teach my self some piano. It's kinda the next best thing after menstrual pads with wings.



Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube

I forgot to add that they are better readers and are better at playing drums than we are. Hell, I'm sure I even knew that before I chose to play the guitar instead, so you gotta ask yourself why, right? Well, for me, I didn't like that there were too many mechanisms between my fingers and the strings....

[ragman1]

Would someone mind telling me how to embed a video

Strangely nobody's answered that unless by PM.

Just play it on YouTube and copy the URL. Paste it on here in the message and the site does it for you. It's amazing :-)

The YouTube URL for your vid before is xhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwmljH41B1Qx. Remove the two x's (added by me so it won't display) and...bingo!

[Thumpalumpacus]

OK, seeing that you guys wanna talk about other stuff, I'll argue against my own post ....

Hmm.... so how about considering that the guitar takes so much more unrewarded effort than the piano (at advanced levels at least) as an argument to make that the guitar is harder to master? 10,000 quality hours from a highly talented player gets you less reward as a guitar player compared to the same effort on piano. 4 years at a music conservatory yields more impressive results (to the average listener) for the piano player, over the guitar player.

So, we can work equally hard, just to end up sounding less impressive. Therefor, in order to sound equally impressive, the guitar is harder work

Reductionism?. Or Sophistry?

Or simply different preferences? I love the sound of a bent double-stop with a little bit of dirt on the amp. Try that on the piano.

"Less reward", "more impressive" ... these are entirely subjective valuations.

By the way, your point was discussed, earlier. The conversation simply moved on.

[princeplanet]

Or simply different preferences? I love the sound of a bent double-stop with a little bit of dirt on the amp. Try that on the piano.

"Less reward", "more impressive" ... these are entirely subjective valuations.


.

No. If most people will have the same impression that A is more impressive than B, then it moves beyond subjectivity. It's not apples vs oranges, it's watermelons vs grapes - as in, which is heavier....

[princeplanet]

...
By the way, your point was discussed, earlier. The conversation simply moved on.

Really? My point that perhaps piano players become more complete musicians because their instrument is a better "teaching machine"? Or that maybe it is harder to become a more complete musician than it is to become a less complete one, regardless of of what instrument you play?

I must be too stupid to have noticed, forgive me, but then, I'm only a guitar player.....