Myers-Briggs and the Jazz Guitarist.

[pushkar000]

I just want to say here that INTJ is supposedly the rarest type.

Probably explains why nobody likes jazz.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I just want to say here that INTJ is supposedly the rarest type.

Probably explains why nobody likes jazz.

Well, one of the three rarest. I

read this and wept bitter, salty tears, INTJ c'est moi! INTJ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[MarkRhodes]

You know, it just struck me that it would be interesting to know what "type" certain jazz guitar teachers are...

[destinytot]

INFJ (...finally got capitals to work)

[MarkRhodes]

I'm glad this poll has hung around a bit and received several "votes." We're clearly an introverted bunch (for the most part.).

[destinytot]

Pretty fair:
http://www.truity.com/personality-type/INFJ

[rsclosson]

Infj

[Nabil B]

INTP. We're just a bunch of asocial weirdos !

[MarkRhodes]

INTP. We're just a bunch of asocial weirdos !

And yet we're remarkably well behaved.... ;o)

[Solo Flight]

FWIW, this is a description of the INTJ personality (or so says one website). Comparing this to some of the posts on this forum is enlightening/amusing.

Portrait of an INTJ - Introverted iNtuitive Thinking Judging
(Introverted Intuition with Extraverted Thinking)

The Scientist

As an INTJ, your primary mode of living is focused internally, where you take things in primarily via your intuition. Your secondary mode is external, where you deal with things rationally and logically.

INTJs live in the world of ideas and strategic planning. They value intelligence, knowledge, and competence, and typically have high standards in these regards, which they continuously strive to fulfill. To a somewhat lesser extent, they have similar expectations of others.

With Introverted Intuition dominating their personality, INTJs focus their energy on observing the world, and generating ideas and possibilities. Their mind constantly gathers information and makes associations about it. They are tremendously insightful and usually are very quick to understand new ideas. However, their primary interest is not understanding a concept, but rather applying that concept in a useful way. Unlike the INTP, they do not follow an idea as far as they possibly can, seeking only to understand it fully. INTJs are driven to come to conclusions about ideas. Their need for closure and organization usually requires that they take some action.

INTJ's tremendous value and need for systems and organization, combined with their natural insightfulness, makes them excellent scientists. An INTJ scientist gives a gift to society by putting their ideas into a useful form for others to follow. It is not easy for the INTJ to express their internal images, insights, and abstractions. The internal form of the INTJ's thoughts and concepts is highly individualized, and is not readily translatable into a form that others will understand. However, the INTJ is driven to translate their ideas into a plan or system that is usually readily explainable, rather than to do a direct translation of their thoughts. They usually don't see the value of a direct transaction, and will also have difficulty expressing their ideas, which are non-linear. However, their extreme respect of knowledge and intelligence will motivate them to explain themselves to another person who they feel is deserving of the effort.

INTJs are natural leaders, although they usually choose to remain in the background until they see a real need to take over the lead. When they are in leadership roles, they are quite effective, because they are able to objectively see the reality of a situation, and are adaptable enough to change things which aren't working well. They are the supreme strategists - always scanning available ideas and concepts and weighing them against their current strategy, to plan for every conceivable contingency.

INTJs spend a lot of time inside their own minds, and may have little interest in the other people's thoughts or feelings. Unless their Feeling side is developed, they may have problems giving other people the level of intimacy that is needed. Unless their Sensing side is developed, they may have a tendency to ignore details which are necessary for implementing their ideas.

The INTJ's interest in dealing with the world is to make decisions, express judgments, and put everything that they encounter into an understandable and rational system. Consequently, they are quick to express judgments. Often they have very evolved intuitions, and are convinced that they are right about things. Unless they complement their intuitive understanding with a well-developed ability to express their insights, they may find themselves frequently misunderstood. In these cases, INTJs tend to blame misunderstandings on the limitations of the other party, rather than on their own difficulty in expressing themselves. This tendency may cause the INTJ to dismiss others input too quickly, and to become generally arrogant and elitist.

INTJs are ambitious, self-confident, deliberate, long-range thinkers. Many INTJs end up in engineering or scientific pursuits, although some find enough challenge within the business world in areas which involve organizing and strategic planning. They dislike messiness and inefficiency, and anything that is muddled or unclear. They value clarity and efficiency, and will put enormous amounts of energy and time into consolidating their insights into structured patterns.

Other people may have a difficult time understanding an INTJ. They may see them as aloof and reserved. Indeed, the INTJ is not overly demonstrative of their affections, and is likely to not give as much praise or positive support as others may need or desire. That doesn't mean that he or she doesn't truly have affection or regard for others, they simply do not typically feel the need to express it. Others may falsely perceive the INTJ as being rigid and set in their ways. Nothing could be further from the truth, because the INTJ is committed to always finding the objective best strategy to implement their ideas. The INTJ is usually quite open to hearing an alternative way of doing something.

When under a great deal of stress, the INTJ may become obsessed with mindless repetitive, Sensate activities, such as over-drinking. They may also tend to become absorbed with minutia and details that they would not normally consider important to their overall goal.

INTJs need to remember to express themselves sufficiently, so as to avoid difficulties with people misunderstandings. In the absence of properly developing their communication abilities, they may become abrupt and short with people, and isolationists. INTJs have a tremendous amount of ability to accomplish great things. They have insight into the Big Picture, and are driven to synthesize their concepts into solid plans of action. Their reasoning skills gives them the means to accomplish that. INTJs are most always highly competent people, and will not have a problem meeting their career or education goals. They have the capability to make great strides in these arenas. On a personal level, the INTJ who practices tolerances and puts effort into effectively communicating their insights to others has everything in his or her power to lead a rich and rewarding life.

[MarkRhodes]

FWIW, this is a description of the INTJ personality (or so says one website). Comparing this to some of the posts on this forum is enlightening/amusing.

That sounds familiar. Though while growing up, my heroes were philosophers and writers, not scientists. My undergrad degree was a B.S. (-no jokes, please!) but I am better with words than numbers any day of the week.

[fep]

So... we have a disproportionate number of INTJ's.

But is there a disproportionate number of INTJ's among the Jazz guitar population in general?

What we have here are jazz guitarists that like to participate on a guitar forum who have taken the Meyers-Briggs test. That is a subset of jazz guitarists.

[MarkRhodes]

So... we have a disproportionate number of INTJ's.

But is there a disproportionate number of INTJ's among the Jazz guitar population in general?

What we have here are jazz guitarists that like to participate on a guitar forum who have taken the Meyers-Briggs test. That is a subset of jazz guitarists.

Good question. I don't know the answer.

[MarkRhodes]

I think there are really only two types of personalities. Those that believe that personalities can be categorized into two types and those who don't.
Perhaps I'll start a poll that rephrases this survey along those lines.
David

Well, that's the old joke about "two kinds of people." It's an okay joke. But there are more than two types of personalities. This is why we draw from a larger-than-two pool when describing people. Consider the very small pool of living ex-Presidents of the United States: Jimmy Carter, George Herbert Walker Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush. Add in the current President, Barack Obama. If you divided those people into only two types (say, the glib and the not so much) you would have Jimmy Carter and George Herbert Walker Bush being the same type. You would have George W Bush and Bill Clinton being the same type. Now, the sitting president is glib, but also introverted. He is like Clinton in being witty but he is like Jimmy Carter in preferring a close inner circle to mingling among lots of people. It seems to me that if we say these five men (-who do not in themselves exhaust the range of human personality) are from one of the two types that encompass all humanity, where would the likes of Charlie Parker and Miles Davis and John Coltrane go? (Those seem like 3 very different types to me.)

[HighSpeedSpoon]

I think there are really only two types of personalities. Those that believe that personalities can be categorized into two types and those who don't.
Perhaps I'll start a poll that rephrases this survey along those lines.
David

I also think there are two types of personalities. Those who can extrapolate the big picture based on incomplete information,

[destinytot]

Introversion is an asset for artists.

[MarkRhodes]

This just popped into my head after posting the above.

My favorite assessments of my chances of becoming a priest.

From a priest: "You read too much and drink too little to be a priest."

From a psychologist: "You're far too intelligent to be happy as a parish priest."

(For the record, I know some guys from seminary who are now priests and are very intelligent. In fact, none of the priests I know are "dummies" by any stretch. But too many are intellectually lazy, which is another matter....)

[destinytot]

The mention of Asperger reminded me of an excellent TED talk given at the Houses of Parliament by Cambridge Autism Research Centre Director, Prof. Simon Baron-Cohen. It's called "The Erosion of Empathy", and it's on YouTube. (It's also pretty strong stuff, so I'd rather not post a link.)

[TH]

... (Before entering seminary, one is subjected to all manner of psychological testing--hours and hours of it. The only people who get in are people who "passed" those tests, which are given and assessed by outside experts.)

There is some kind of notion that because a musician can be very dynamic in their art, very articulate in their craft and very direct with an audience, that they are extroverts. Of all the musicians who have confided their fear of crowds and the shunning of the rock star dynamic, one thing they all kept secret: Their own introverted personalities.
There are the public personae and there is the creator.
Job interviews, venues, …even music school admissions departments hold deeply ingrained prejudices that favour the extrovert.
An ironic twist a few years ago, a student was admitted with the knowledge that he was a high functioning autistic savant. The first thing the school did was put him firmly in the spotlight and shout to the world "See? We have all types of geniuses here!"
Maybe if it weren't such a big thing for a school to overcome a reputation, they might have let him flourish on his own. As it was, his admission was seen as an argument that "Oh plenty is being done". So there's much to do.
I am sometimes impatient that merely self identifying is such a slow path to change and so many introverts are unsuited to go up against the overwhelming tendencies of the E type.
David

[Vladan]

Problem is that questions are of a "choose own the personality type" kind, where we need blade runner and his turtle story. Also they start repeating after very short while, so you have to decide weather to follow the line, or be honest and break the code.

Guess real personality is CCCC, as in 4 x Compensating, but on the test, as honest as I was, the result was ESTP, with the percentage of
E1%, S12%, T50%, P44%

[MarkRhodes]

There is some kind of notion that because a musician can be very dynamic in their art, very articulate in their craft and very direct with an audience, that they are extroverts.

I guess some people see it that way. if you want to perform in public---and not all musicians do--you have to be able to engage an audience, but that does not require one to be an extrovert. I realized this a long time ago. I used to make cassettes for my friends with new songs on them. That would be the "A" side. The "B" side would contain me talking over the tracks, telling the 'story behind the songs.' My friends really enjoyed those and thought I was very funny, charismatic, witty, and just 'out there' on tape but not in person. (A few women who heard the tapes made a play for me, thinking I would be a great guy for them be with. It never worked out that way. And I had to tell them: "That funny guy on tape only comes out when he's alone in a room...."

You know the old joke. "In entertainment, nothing matters more than sincerity. Once you learn to fake that, you've got it made!" There's a nugget of truth in that.

[HighSpeedSpoon]

I guess some people see it that way. if you want to perform in public---and not all musicians do--you have to be able to engage an audience, but that does not require one to be an extrovert. ...

I see it this way too. The first time my wife and I took the MB, someone questioned the dividing line between extrovert and introvert. The test leader suggested this definition: Where do you most often go to let your hair down and recharge? My wife is a clear "E" and she goes for company, if not in person then via phone. I am an "I", and I go into my den/shed/cave.

Performing may have reinvigorating aspects, but it is not the same as letting your hair down, although I question the extent to which even "E"s let thier hair down on stage (and regardless of MB, I wish I had hair to let down ).

[MarkRhodes]

I see it this way too. The first time my wife and I took the MB, someone questioned the dividing line between extrovert and introvert. The test leader suggested this definition: Where do you most often go to let your hair down and recharge? My wife is a clear "E" and she goes for company, if not in person then via phone. I am an "I", and I go into my den/shed/cave.

I think that's a good way to look at it.

[TH]

Seeing that this thread has become a somewhat safe haven for introverts, I have a question for anyone inclined to chime in. Do introverts who have attended musical institutions like music schools feel that the curricula favours the extrovert, or even marginalized the introvert?
Have things like venues, the traditional jazz forms, the traditional formats or even assumptions of behaviour been, at some point, or are they presently obstacles to progressing as a "performer"?

I ask this because I'm still trying to untangle the many reasons why so many promising musicians stop progressing. I also don't know how to even start collecting data to initiate any kinds of institutional reforms.
Just a question to anyone who'd care to share.
Thanks
David

[destinytot]

Have things like venues, the traditional jazz forms, the traditional formats or even assumptions of behaviour been, at some point, or are they presently obstacles to progressing as a "performer"?

Hi David.

My 2c is yes, to the extent that they get in the way of (close) human contact.

Personally, I work with this situation (rather than against it). For example, I only work with musicians with whom I've established empathy and trust (I need to feel comfortably vulnerable when playing).

The same applies to bookings; I rarely seek them, but when I do so it absolutely must be a face-to-face conversation (easier in some cultures than others).

I also use certain performing situations to remain aloof (private functions).

Regarding music schools, I wouldn't dream of attending one as I'm positive it would be crushing for me - and in a way that informal apprenticeships/mentoring, private tuition or jams aren't.

On the other hand, I've learned a huge amount by participating in forum threads and reflecting on my assumptions and beliefs about jazz. I haven't changed my beliefs, but it's changing my behaviour as a performer - and for the better.