Whiplash the Movie

[nick1994]

I've seen it. It has good acting and interesting plot. Not very realistic at all though. It's not about jazz or music for that matter. I was disappointed by it but I had high expectations after hearing good reviews.

[jzucker]

I've seen it. It has good acting and interesting plot. Not very realistic at all though. It's not about jazz or music for that matter. I was disappointed by it but I had high expectations after hearing good reviews.

disagree. I thought it was fabulous and for a movie about to jazz to win major hollywood awards was a huge win for the music. How was it not about jazz, lol!

And i've never been physically threatened but having played in a ton of college and rehearsal big bands it seemed pretty realistic to me. So did the psychology of the drummer and his approach to life. I sure identified with it.

[nick1994]

disagree. I thought it was fabulous and for a movie about to jazz to win major hollywood awards was a huge win for the music. How was it not about jazz, lol!

And i've never been physically threatened but having played in a ton of college and rehearsal big bands it seemed pretty realistic to me. So did the psychology of the drummer and his approach to life. I sure identified with it.

There's hardly any improvisation in it. you don't see him jamming with other students. you don't see him playing standards. There's only mention of joe jones, buddy rich charlie parker and Louis Armstrong. That's it! you don't see him transcribe, you only see him practice once or twice and you really can't call getting frustrated and punching in his snare practice. He rarely went to any gigs, or played any gigs in the movie.

I've been in an ensemble at uni and if you weren't getting the changes or couldn't read the charts or couldn't play in time, you'd just get sent out. If you can't get it the first time, then you're not going to get it the second time. you need to go practice.

So for me, the movie wasn't about jazz.

[jzucker]

There's hardly any improvisation in it. you don't see him jamming with other students. you don't see him playing standards. There's only mention of joe jones, buddy rich charlie parker and Louis Armstrong. That's it! you don't see him transcribe, you only see him practice once or twice and you really can't call getting frustrated and punching in his snare practice. He rarely went to any gigs, or played any gigs in the movie.

I've been in an ensemble at uni and if you weren't getting the changes or couldn't read the charts or couldn't play in time, you'd just get sent out. If you can't get it the first time, then you're not going to get it the second time. you need to go practice.

So for me, the movie wasn't about jazz.

have you ever played in a big band? I made a living playing in a bigband for several years. The majority of playing in a big band is the arrangements. I have played with Hank Levy who's charts were played in that movie and those renditions were the best I've ever heard his charts being played. This movie focused on one aspect of jazz and that was a drummer driving the time in a big band.

Who says that a jazz movie has to be about every facet of jazz? And obviously he *COULD* play and he was just being pushed to play better. (This isn't a tactic that I agree with).

I guess I'm not surprised that jazzers would be their own worst enemy and thumb their noses at something that has achieved some commercial success.

[nick1994]

have you ever played in a big band? I made a living playing in a bigband for several years. The majority of playing in a big band is the arrangements. I have played with Hank Levy who's charts were played in that movie and those renditions were the best I've ever heard his charts being played. This movie focused on one aspect of jazz and that was a drummer driving the time in a big band.

Who says that a jazz movie has to be about every facet of jazz? And obviously he *COULD* play and he was just being pushed to play better. (This isn't a tactic that I agree with).

I guess I'm not surprised that jazzers would be their own worst enemy and thumb their noses at something that has achieved some commercial success.

Yes, I have but not a professional big band. I know they are arrangements. but there's more to uni than just a big band and there's more to jazz than just big band stuff.

If the movie is a jazz movie then don't you think it would illustrate a more diverse exploration of jazz rather than just containing it to a big band setting? See, I don't think it covers enough facets of jazz to be called a jazz movie and I don't think it was supposed to be a jazz movie. The plot's not about the music, it's about his ego and how he wants to be the best.

[Moonray]

Bret Primack's view is pretty much in accord with mine.

[nick1994]

You guys are proving my "JAZZ-NERDS-TAKE-MUSIC-FAR-TOO-SERIOUSLY" meme more and more true with every post.

Keep it up!!

This is just a friendly discussion about a film and its relevance to jazz. If you think that this is taking things too seriously well then that's good for you. Some people like to talk about this stuff. Plus, this is the right context to have these sort of discussions.

[pamosmusic]

I'd imagine this is how lawyers feel when they watch Law and Order.

[Broyale]

We could correct this with our own version
Make it more realistic, guy gets into program, woodsheds between classes and jerkin' off, has to deal with a bunch of young jazz snobs with rich parents funding their education, lead character graduates from college a 50k slave to Sallie Mae, takes a low-wage job while scraping by giving lessons and playing $60 gigs while spending his free evenings arguing on Jazzguitar.be because, well....jazz.
I want to see that movie.

[nick1994]

We could correct this with our own version
Make it more realistic, guy gets into program, woodsheds between classes and jerkin' off, has to deal with a bunch of young jazz snobs with rich parents funding their education, lead character graduates from college a 50k slave to Sallie Mae, takes a low-wage job while scraping by giving lessons and playing $60 gigs while spending his free evenings arguing on Jazzguitar.be because, well....jazz.
I want to see that movie.

as do I. it's realistic and realism means good story telling, just look at those awful lord of the rings movies that fail solely because they are not realistic. Why did this movie have to be set in a jazz school? why not set in a physics class about a really mean tough love physics lecturer who's looking for the next Einstein? or in a philosophy class about a guy who could be the next Immanuel Kant?

[fumblefingers]

i loved the movie. it is not a documentary.

it's more about talent, hard work, dedication, and overcoming difficult personal obstacles to get where you want to be - perhaps even where you deserve to be? it just so happens that it used a fictitious "top jazz music school" in Manhattan as a backdrop, which made it fun.

did you guys notice that members of the audience at the Oscar awards show clapped and yelled every single time the movie's title was mentioned? that didn't happen for the other movies. i think a lot of performers in Hollywood related to the theme/story, which might be more representative of the thespian/drama world than the music world, who knows?

and J.K. Simmons was unforgettable as the unprofessional, manipulative, malicious, over-the-top, psycho, band-leader Nazi. it makes me smile every time i think about his performance, the crazy s.o.b

[matt.guitarteacher]

as do I. it's realistic and realism means good story telling, just look at those awful lord of the rings movies that fail solely because they are not realistic. Why did this movie have to be set in a jazz school? why not set in a physics class about a really mean tough love physics lecturer who's looking for the next Einstein? or in a philosophy class about a guy who could be the next Immanuel Kant?

I thought broyale was making a joke. I think the point is that reality ISN'T all that interesting. $60 gigs and student loan debt are really compelling? Maybe I'm misunderstanding...

[Solo Flight]

I liked the movie a lot. I don’t get all the complaints with it not being a realistic portrayal of jazz or music school, etc. In what other movie about high-level achievement in sports or entertainment do we see all the boring hours of practice and preparation?

Law and Order is an excellent example- a halfway realistic portrayal of criminal law would show month after month of delays and non-action between arrest and trial (or more accurately, plea bargain) - yawn. On the show, that all flies by with one bum-bum.

As to the movie’s supposed limited view of jazz, I wasn’t expecting a documentary – not sure why we should have been. And for those, like the New Yorker’s reviewer, who were particularly dismissive of the choice of Buddy Rich as the kid’s idol as opposed to a more “authentic” bebop drummer, I think they totally missed the irony in the context of the movie’s story line that Rich was a technically amazing drummer who also was a major league a-hole to his own band (and probably to lots of others).

[jzucker]

Jazzer's aren't happy unless they are miserable. They want to complain that jazz gets no respect but when it does, they whine and bitch about it. Witness all the !@#$ branford and eubanks had to go through.

Hell, just be happy someone brought out a movie in a context where jazz played a role. The movie could have easily been about classical music.

I liked the movie a lot. I don’t get all the complaints with it not being a realistic portrayal of jazz or music school, etc. In what other movie about high-level achievement in sports or entertainment do we see all the boring hours of practice and preparation?

Law and Order is an excellent example- a halfway realistic portrayal of criminal law would show month after month of delays and non-action between arrest and trial (or more accurately, plea bargain) - yawn. On the show, that all flies by with one bum-bum.

As to the movie’s supposed limited view of jazz, I wasn’t expecting a documentary – not sure why we should have been. And for those, like the New Yorker’s reviewer, who were particularly dismissive of the choice of Buddy Rich as the kid’s idol as opposed to a more “authentic” bebop drummer, I think they totally missed the irony in the context of the movie’s story line that Rich was a technically amazing drummer who also was a major league a-hole to his own band (and probably to lots of others).

[pushkar000]

I do think that "jazzers take it too seriously"/"jazzers are their own worst enemy" points do have some merit, but on the other hand, I think the overall consensus is that jazz as we know is quite misrepresented in Whiplash. In other words this translates to : this movie does not give jazz the respect it deserves.

I'm not sure how someone is going to deny that in some way, jazz was not given due respect. Here are the 3 major devices used by the directors to portray jazz.

1) How fast the drummer can swing
2) Shiny brass instruments
3) Lots and lots of sheet music

As far as a portrayal of jazz goes, heavily on the shallow side.

As fans and supporters of jazz, I'd say its completely natural and healthy to a certain extent to take an "anti-whiplash" stance.

On the other hand, whiplash is a movie, it was a big bucks movie and to net in the general public who is not familiar with jazz, this was the best way to give them an impression of "jazz music" without turning them away. I don't think it would have sold the way it did if we had a tenor sax as the protagonist and 16th note bop runs over Coltrane changes playing everywhere.

And also, in another way, the movie does give jazz some due respect by portraying it as a serious discipline which requires intense dedication.

As jazz supporters we should all be thankful(if a little miffed by the shallow portrayal) that this movie really did a lot to bring jazz out to a general worldwide public!

[nick1994]

I thought broyale was making a joke. I think the point is that reality ISN'T all that interesting. $60 gigs and student loan debt are really compelling? Maybe I'm misunderstanding...

I understood he was making a joke. My reply was supposed to be sarcastisc. I don't judge movies solely based on whether they are realistic or not.

[jzucker]

I do think that "jazzers take it too seriously"/"jazzers are their own worst enemy" points do have some merit, but on the other hand, I think the overall consensus is that jazz as we know is quite misrepresented in Whiplash. In other words this translates to : this movie does not give jazz the respect it deserves.

I'm not sure how someone is going to deny that in some way, jazz was not given due respect. Here are the 3 major devices used by the directors to portray jazz.

1) How fast the drummer can swing
2) Shiny brass instruments
3) Lots and lots of sheet music

It was pretty accurate in my experiences of playing for years in modern big bands. Play with Wynton and find out if a super fast swing is important.

Play in a big band and figure out if shiny brass instruments are important.

Play in a big band and decide if lots of sheet music is important.

An accurate depiction of the progress of a real jazz student would be horribly boring to anyone other than jazz nerds. Maybe something better depicted in a written biography like the ones you can find on coltrane, bird, etc.

[ecj]

It was pretty accurate in my experiences of playing for years in modern big bands. Play with Wynton and find out if a super fast swing is important.

Play in a big band and figure out if shiny brass instruments are important.

Play in a big band and decide if lots of sheet music is important.

An accurate depiction of the progress of a real jazz student would be horribly boring to anyone other than jazz nerds. Maybe something better depicted in a written biography like the ones you can find on coltrane, bird, etc.

I think in fairness, Jack, the way the movie depicts "practice" is what is turning off a lot of people in the music world. I haven't actually seen it, but all the negative reviews I've read have said that the movie makes it seem like this kid just showed up for rehearsal each week, and there wasn't a lot of emphasis on what he had to do in between to get better.

Contrast it with something like Shine that was really all about the personal quest for perfection and the way that monomaniacal dedication can manifest itself. Even Black Swan spent a lot of time focusing on Natalie Portman's character's constant practicing and frustration.

I'll check out the movie soon, but just wanted to note that.

[jzucker]

i still don't buy that explanation. I think it depicted pretty well the kid listening to buddy rich (who was a great player and one of bird's favorite drummers) and learned to cop his swing feel. I watched it with two other musicians and they both loved it as well.

Comparing this film to another one is silly. It's like comparing pat martino to george benson. It's pointless.

[pushkar000]

It was pretty accurate in my experiences of playing for years in modern big bands. Play with Wynton and find out if a super fast swing is important.

Play in a big band and figure out if shiny brass instruments are important.

Play in a big band and decide if lots of sheet music is important.

An accurate depiction of the progress of a real jazz student would be horribly boring to anyone other than jazz nerds. Maybe something better depicted in a written biography like the ones you can find on coltrane, bird, etc.

With all due respect to your knowledge and background, I would like to say the following:

1) In my opinion the directors did not choose those 3 elements because they are as you say important elements, but they chose them because they are 3 easily understood elements. Anybody can tell if its fast or slow. Sheet music is an obvious indicator of music. And shiny instruments add to the mystique and wow factor of the whole jazz thing. While it takes nothing away from their importance in the actual music itself, one can still understand that the reasons for highlighting these factors were to serve a different purpose - not to portray jazz faithfully but rather to increase the width of their audience catching net.

2) For many of us, jazz is a lot about smaller groups, improvisation, interplay between members. I love my big band music and have great respect for cats in big bands! But I also love and spend lots of time listening to smaller groups and lots of improvisation. A lot of the greatest additions to the legacy of jazz have been in the form of smaller groups, and this aspect was not shown at all in the movie, and it does feel to me like there's a large part of jazz missing or conveniently absent from the movie. The spontaneity that is the lifeblood of jazz has been left out.

Of course, its a movie, its not a documentary, what am I expecting? But a little sore feelings are natural I believe. As mentioned above, it would be similar to a lawyer watching Law and Order!
As far as movies go, even though I watch only about 2-3 a year so I'm not the greatest judge, I thought it was absolutely brilliant.

[Bill C]

I haven't seen the movie yet but I understand it's a work of fiction so there's no obligation for it to be authentic/respectful/reverential in any way - imo ...

[jzucker]

This movie was never meant to be a history of jazz. It was a slice. Not the whole pie. When you listen to Dave Holland's big band do you put it down because it doesn't sound like a jazz guitar trio?

With all due respect to your knowledge and background, I would like to say the following:

1) In my opinion the directors did not choose those 3 elements because they are as you say important elements, but they chose them because they are 3 easily understood elements. Anybody can tell if its fast or slow. Sheet music is an obvious indicator of music. And shiny instruments add to the mystique and wow factor of the whole jazz thing. While it takes nothing away from their importance in the actual music itself, one can still understand that the reasons for highlighting these factors were to serve a different purpose - not to portray jazz faithfully but rather to increase the width of their audience catching net.

2) For many of us, jazz is a lot about smaller groups, improvisation, interplay between members. I love my big band music and have great respect for cats in big bands! But I also love and spend lots of time listening to smaller groups and lots of improvisation. A lot of the greatest additions to the legacy of jazz have been in the form of smaller groups, and this aspect was not shown at all in the movie, and it does feel to me like there's a large part of jazz missing or conveniently absent from the movie. The spontaneity that is the lifeblood of jazz has been left out.

Of course, its a movie, its not a documentary, what am I expecting? But a little sore feelings are natural I believe. As mentioned above, it would be similar to a lawyer watching Law and Order!
As far as movies go, even though I watch only about 2-3 a year so I'm not the greatest judge, I thought it was absolutely brilliant.

[Jonzo]

Even Black Swan spent a lot of time focusing on Natalie Portman's character's constant practicing and frustration.

I'll check out the movie soon, but just wanted to note that.

To be fair, Black Swan had other... umm... plot elements to hold your interest.

[pushkar000]

This movie was never meant to be a history of jazz. It was a slice. Not the whole pie. When you listen to Dave Holland's big band do you put it down because it doesn't sound like a jazz guitar trio?

Well a lawyer watching Law and Order probably wouldn't go about singing praises of it.
He'd be the first one to point out, "Hey man that's not how we do it!". Even though he knows its just a TV show. The case with many jazz fans(me included) who are a little sore about whiplash is the same thing.

As I mentioned, bottom line - I thought it was a great movie.
It's a great movie that (understandably) doesn't portray jazz in the most faithful manner - or it doesn't portray enough of jazz to provide a clear picture.

Edit : I have not listened to the Dave Holland big band. I must check it out, thanks.

[Larry Feldman]

Don't forget folks, it's Hollywood. But I'm glad that this movie got as much attention and accolades as it did.