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People are sinners, and don’t do what’s right even when they know better, you mean?
Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Congratulations. You understand a fundamental truth in the Bible.
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05-26-2026 11:16 AM
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I am a Christian which means I believe in the Trinity. One God in 3 Persons. It is a mystery and for Christians not something to be solved. For some they might think we are crazy or completely lost, others might even say we have no logical brain.
So, per St Paul the Cross is a stumbling block, it is foolishness, weakness and the Creator of the universe was killed by his own creation.
I have to admit just looking at that would cause one to just give it up and move on with other things. Well, I can tell you that if I had done that with the guitar when I first started and they told me hold my fingers down for a F major Bar chord at the first fret, I never would have gotten to the point I am today. Donna Lee and even at reasonable tempo.
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NPC's are binary. Originally Posted by Strat-itis
I proposed my 'thought for the day' to both Grok and Chat GPT...
What are the ideal conditions and locations for data centers. Their response was the same.
Generally speaking, the northwest and some places in the midwest are good as far as the US.
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The term "Agnostic atheism" was introduced in this thread earlier and describes my position, that's why I used it. It is also called the "weak atheism". Here the term "weak" has a philosophical meaning (also used in math the same way). It suggests making fewer assumptions. Originally Posted by ruger9
1. Negative (or “weak”) atheism (what was called agnostic atheist before)
Definition: Simply not believing in any gods.Key point: Makes no claim that gods don’t exist.
Examples:
- “I’ve seen no convincing evidence for any deity.”
- “I suspend judgment; I just don’t believe.”
This is the most common form globally.
2. Positive (or “strong”) atheism
Definition: The explicit belief that no gods exist.This is a stronger metaphysical claim and requires justification.
Examples:
- “The concept of a god is incoherent.”
- “Given what we know about physics, biology, and cognition, gods are unnecessary hypotheses.”
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I was amazed that AI gave pretty much a summary of what I've been saying when I asked if the claims made by Christianity consistent with rational thought. In my posts I got into more details about where morality comes from or why personal experience is an unreliable basis for metaphysical claims but the response basically is my position. Here is AI's response that I believe agreeable by the most:
I’ll take “rational thought” to mean: forming beliefs by logical consistency, evidence-responsiveness, and parsimony (no extra assumptions without need).
1. On that standard, is Christianity irrational?
Not automatically.
- Internally: Christianity can be made logically coherent with enough distinctions (Trinity, Incarnation, etc.). It’s not like believing “square circles exist.”
- Epistemically: The problem isn’t coherence but justification. Christianity makes many strong, specific claims (miracles, resurrection, souls, revelation, a specific God) that go far beyond what shared public evidence supports.
So:
- It’s not strictly irrational in the sense of “logically impossible.”
- But it is weakly rational at best—it stretches rational thought to its permissive edge.
2. Weak atheism under rational thought
Weak atheism = “I don’t believe in any gods because I don’t see good enough reasons to.”
On the standard of rational thought:
- Consistent: No internal contradictions.
- Evidence-responsive: It tracks evidence: “If strong evidence appears, I’ll revise.”
- Parsimonious: It doesn’t multiply entities (no souls, no miracles, no revelation, no specific deity).
So weak atheism is not just allowed by rational thought—it’s what rational thought naturally defaults to when evidence is inconclusive.
3. Where Christianity strains rational thought
Christianity asks you to:
- Trust ancient testimonial evidence for miracles over well-confirmed regularities of nature.
- Accept non-physical entities (souls, angels, demons, God) without independent verification.
- Treat a specific historical tradition as uniquely authoritative among thousands.
- Reconcile an all-good, all-powerful God with massive, apparently gratuitous suffering.
A rational thinker can try to hold all that together, but it requires:
- heavy use of ad hoc moves (“mysterious ways,” “God’s reasons are beyond us”), and
- a selective attitude to evidence (trusting some ancient miracle reports, ignoring others).
That’s where it starts to depart from the clean norms of rational thought, even if it doesn’t collapse into outright contradiction.
4. Direct answer
Given rational thought as the standard:
- Weak atheism is a paradigmatically rational stance: it withholds belief where evidence is insufficient and stays open to revision.
- Christianity is not strictly irrational, but it is less rationally defensible: it commits to a large, specific, low-evidence metaphysical package and must lean on faith, tradition, or personal experience to bridge the evidential gap.
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An agnostic is an atheist with commitment issues
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In my case, rejecting strong atheism is a carefully chosen position. It's not just me throwing my arms up in the air and saying "I don't know". We know that consciousness can emerge out of physical processes. Until we understand what consciousness is, we can't reject the possibility of some sort of greater consciousness (whatever that might be). Because we already know that it is a property of the universe. Originally Posted by jazzshrink
An agnostic is an atheist with commitment issues
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I was raised without religion and I believe in the Trinity. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
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This is a profound notion. Through my study of the formation of life, I came to the conclusion that there is no definitive mechanism where life arises because chemistry simply intrinsically advances itself. RNA is just chemical attraction that replicates itself. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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That's not what I'm saying though. When I say I reject strong atheism, I mean I reject the notion that it is impossible for some sort of greater consciousness to exist. It doesn't mean it necessary does. I don't think there is any reason to believe that mechanisms identified in chemistry and biology cannot produce what we call life out of the molecules that are sustained in the universe over millions of years under the right conditions. Originally Posted by Strat-itis
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I was making an analogy. I understand your definition of your outlook.
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Actually, I need to correct myself in order to be a Christian one has to baptized in the Trinitarian Formula. Not being baptized you are not yet Christian however you can still be saved according to Roman Catholic Doctrine. I might add I have never once even thought about asking AI any of this stuff because I don't need AI to answer question I have studied most of my life. Relating this to the guitar since this is a jazz guitar sight I will say there are elements of jazz and the guitar that are religious. If I play the guitar faithful every day and practice I will get better. If I pray faithfully ever day and spend time with the Lord I will get to know him and myself much better. Originally Posted by Stevebol
We pray not to change God's mind he is perfect. We pray to discover who we are and what God has for us and wants us to do. I play the guitar to get better and discover interesting sounds and melodies. Funny those things give me peace..................................possible this thread has something more than we think.
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Who sez you have to be baptized to be Christian?
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Dawgbone... check in here... Originally Posted by deacon Mark
Am I mistaken in my understanding that the one of the things that caused the great schism (the orthodox separation from the Roman Catholic Church) was that the orthodox do not believe in the holy trinity? They are of course still Christians...
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Orthodox Christians believe in the Trinity as do most Protestants. Originally Posted by ruger9
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My sister in-law. She didn't invite my parents to the baptism of their youngest granddaughter. I hesitated to mention this to my brother before he passed away but I did. Originally Posted by Strat-itis
For the most part his response was- religion is the root of all evil.
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I think he is talking about Greek Orthodox? There are early sects in Egypt which don't believe in the Trinity. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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To me, music is simply sound. It doesn't serve God or the devil but plenty of people have that system of believe. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
This is my take on music;
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The Roman Catholic Church says baptism is first sacrament. We become a child of God. It cannot ever be undone once baptized. You could simply say your a Christian and believe the basic but actually to become a Christian requires baptism. It is in the Creed. Google that to get more. Likewise I am a deacon it cannot be undone although a deacon could stop believing and walk away…….however the mark of ordination always remains it forever changes the soul. Originally Posted by Strat-itis
This relates to being a jazz guitarist because once in the blood it never leaves entirely right……we always want to swing things a bit more than others.
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My suggestion is that everyone read this thread starting from the last post and working your way back the first. That way, you get to pass successfully through a morass of ahistoricity, ignorance, smugness, intolerance, and stupidity and be rewarded for your ordeal with a really nice bit of music. Kind of like listening to a country song backwards.
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My mistake regarding the trinity. I've been doing alot of reading lately about various Christians sects, and I must have gotten my wires crossed, as there are some denominations that do not believe in it.
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The schism was in 1054, based around disputes on papal authority and disagreements about the procession of the holy spirit. There is no vicar of Christ in orthodoxy, the patriarch is considered first among equals. Originally Posted by ruger9
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Name one. I am unaware of any, The Coptic Egyptian Orthodox Church most certainly believes in the Trinity as do the Assyrian and Armenian Orthodox Churches. Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Unitarians along with a few very minor Churches reject the Trinity as of course, do Jews and Muslims. Originally Posted by charlieparker
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I'm not aware of any. The main disputes between eastern orthodox and oriental orthodox are related to the personhood of Christ. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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That would be the Patriarch of Constantinople I presume, as each Orthodox Church has its own Patriarch or Metropolitan. Patriarch Kyrill of the Russian Orthodox Church is an ally of President Putin for obvious reasons. There are three different Ukrainian Orthodox Churches, two are led by Metropolitans and one has a Patriarch. IIRC, two of those Churches are not fond of President Putin for obvious reasons. Originally Posted by DawgBone
We are lucky, here in America to NOT have an established National Church.
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