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I mean that's the TL;DR of that 4 hour video basically.
Originally Posted by John A.
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05-07-2025 10:35 AM
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I think I watched more Giacomo in the Trey Gordy video than I ever would have on my own.
His music seems like absolute dreck. If I had come across him I would have watched in horror for a couple seconds before clicking away.
Plagiarism is inexcusable. Anyone over the age of 10 knows that.
Miming and studio trickery doesn't bother me, it's obviously entertainment, but it also makes it less interesting to me.
Mistakes are human, and for me it adds to a performance. Someone plays an odd note that might be a mistake, then plays something that recovers and makes it make sense. I love that shit. It's what makes improvisation so interesting.
I've heard rumors that Pat Metheny overdubbed his solos on a lot of Pat Metheny Group studio albums. Is there any truth to this?
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Plagiarism is inexcusable, I agree. But it is no longer the case that "anyone over the age of 10 knows that." More and more professors---college professors---assume that many students will let AI do their writing for them if given a chance (-and the students see nothing wrong with this either: "you wanted 5 pages on the Boston Tea Party, well, there you have it!") To combat this, some professors require writing assignments to be written by hand in class. Originally Posted by supersoul
Recent decades have seen a few journalists caught out for plagiarism but rather than being fired for "the unforgivable sin" were kept on because they had a forgiving audience and editors who admitted "we all mistakes but this won't happen again." Some of those "caught out" have claimed "Yes, I forgot to cite those sources, but that was an oversight, nothing intentional, mind you, I would never!" and skated onward relatively unscathed.
Unfortunate yet no longer surprising.
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What would be objectional about that? Curious to get your take. Originally Posted by supersoul
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Not just journalists. Some high level experts and officials have used pseudonyms of their own names as sources for their BS. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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I don't think there's anything objectionable about it. Originally Posted by lammie200
There was another video on this, "The ethics of fake guitar" by Adam Neely. He was talking about a "spectrum of permissablity" for jazz, and that working out a solo is "dicey." Which made me think of Metheny.
39:00 in this
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That's depressing. The whole notion of not plagiarising or even paraphrasing was hammered into me when I was really young. You do your research, take notes, formulate your argument in your own words, use footnotes to cite what someone else wrote, etc. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Plagiarism used to be a career ender, and it's sad that it isn't anymore.
On the bright side, if assignments are required to be written by hand, perhaps the dying art of cursive writing will make a triumphant return.
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Metheny's music ranges from quite obviously live, small-group performances to elaborate arrangements that pretty have to be done with overdubs. Maybe he has worked out some solos in advance, but in his case I'm sure it would be for valid musical/compositional reasons. He also has said that he has done punch-ins and comps. But overall, it's also obvious that he has never overdubbed or comped parts because he _couldn't_ play a complete take, and I don't think he's ever given or encouraged a false impression about how he works. Originally Posted by supersoul
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Also, maybe it was mentioned, but a lot of classic rock songs are pastiches of parts, so not really continuous takes. Some songs don't even have song-like parts. Listen to isolated Pete Townsend guitar on some of the iconic Who classics. He plays guitar as it it were just an effect to the song. The Beatles were reliant on that as well. On the other hand, EVH sometimes did his parts in full. Listen to the isolated guitar track from Panama, for example. He is full into it. Originally Posted by John A.
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Pat Metheny is well known for editing his solos heavily in post production, as does Scott Henderson. It’s part of the process of making a record for them and no one in their right minds would say those guys cannot play live lol. Originally Posted by supersoul
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It's all about making the best album possible. A rock album without overdubs is almost nonexistent. "The Trinity Sessions" by the Cowboy Junkies is direct to two track; that's all I can think of. Originally Posted by lammie200
l didn't mean for my question to come across as a diss on Pat Metheny. Far from it, I have a ton of respect for him. Mostly I'm interested in the craft of how he has made his records. There is a lot of attention to detail.
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Off the top of my head, Big World by Joe Jackson is completely live to 2-track DAT (though it's a live performance, not a studio recording). Pretty sure a lot of Bob Dylan recordings are live in the studio (with few if any overdubs). The Basement Tapes for sure, but I think a lot of his true studio recordings have been as well. Clapton's From the Cradle is another (all live except for two songs). I'm sure there are plenty more, but I haven't kept a running list. Obviously, tons of early rock & roll, blues and R&B records predate overdubbing or were done in the period when multi-track equipment wasn't widely available. But it's probably fair to say that once overdubbing becoming broadly available it quickly became the default practice. Originally Posted by supersoul
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Not just overdubbing, but looping in some regards. For example, the rhythm track for the Guess Who's "American Woman" is a tape loop. Standard MO for decades now if not a half century, or longer.
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Pat is a perfectionist and views the studio as a tool for achieving this. He reportedly splices solos, punches in notes, etc. This of course is not uncommon in modern recording and has been normal practice for a long time. Originally Posted by supersoul
There is a very long interview of Jim Hall by his daughter on YouTube. At some point in that video, he talks about the duo album he made with Pat. He was very unhappy with it, basically said he wouldn't mind if he never heard it again. After the recordings were made, Pat took the tapes and worked on them and Jim was very unhappy with this. He described the music as having been embalmed.
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First few Beatles and Rolling Stones albums are direct. Black Sabbath S/T too. After all, it was the only option back then. Originally Posted by supersoul
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And fountain pens! Originally Posted by supersoul
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Not so for the Beatles. Many early Beatles tracks had overdubs, which can be done with as few as 2 tape tracks. Initially, they used 2-track machines and either recorded the whole band on 1 track and used the second for overdubs or bounced to another machine. By 64, they were using 4-track machines. There’s tons of info on the web about this. I don’t know about the Stones or Sabbath, though. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Definetely some overdubs on Black Sabbath albums, even on the 1st one. Originally Posted by John A.
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My understanding is that George Martin used looping when recording The Beatles. Not just for rhythm tracks but full "A" or "B" sections. Originally Posted by lammie200
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Kinda sounds like an Insta-ad too. I mean, a magnet that clings to wood... Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Oops, I really thought the first Beatles and Sabbath albums were done live in studio. I must have misunderstood what “we played our live set in the studio” means.
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It is funny when you think about it. I'm not sure why the gadget is called The Magnet. It is somewhat horseshoe shaped, which is where I assumed the idea came from, but I never asked Troy about it. Originally Posted by RJVB
Kinda sounds like an Insta-ad too. I mean, a magnet that clings to wood...
If you record in slo-motion, you get an up-close, highly detailed view of your picking motion(s). The results can be jarring: THAT'S what I do? Really??
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I had the same understanding as it relates to how The Beatles recorded cover tunes on their first album. They had those songs down pat after playing them live (especially those almost daily shows in Germany), and they would be recorded in a few takes without overdubbing. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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The first Black Sabbath was recorded in a single day. There were some sound effects added (thunder, rain, bells) and Tony Iommi doubled a few guitar parts, but the band was playing live in the studio. And the album was their live set. (Ozzy was in a separate booth to keep his vocal mic from picking up too much of the sound from other instruments.) A bit here and there might be cleaned up, but any way you slice it, recording 7 songs that span a half-hour in a day---and not just the basic tracks but the vocals, solos, intros and outros---is quite a feat, especially for youngsters making their first record. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
It's funny to think that later, bands might spend DAYS just getting the right snare drum sound.
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You ever listen to this compilation of Live BBC cuts? They were an incredibly tight band. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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