Is the (jazz guitar) vinyl market down?

[Dennis D]

Just for kicks I went looking for local stores that bought and sold cd's and vinyl, and also saw a reference to Discogs, where I'd actually purchased an album or two a while back. From what I could tell, after doing some searches, artists' albums from Johnny Smith to Howard Roberts to Wes's ' Smokin' at the Half Note' can be had for a buck or less . ( ? )

I'm wondering whether the local resellers are now pricing these by the pound. Anyone have any recent experiences ?

Thx

[wintermoon]

Not down but common titles are naturally always going to be priced lower.
Even so you're unlikely to find those for that cheap unless they're beat up/worn or you get lucky somewhere like a thrift shop.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Prices for jazz vinyl (and CDs) have been all over the place for a long time. There are bargains to be had in the new and used bins at shops all over the world. There is truly no market value for anything, because sellers vary in their knowledge, markets, and goals. So unless you know the seller and can check out the goods yourself, you pays your money and you takes your chances. Things are worth what they're worth to you when you want them.

Many shops are moving low cost volume to generate cash flow. They often have no idea what they have in terms of rarity, interest, or historical value. Some are asking ridiculous amounts for items they perceive as being high value pieces, often because of name or age and despite the ready availability of the same things at far lower prices. A simple check on Amazon demonstrates this very clearly. Here's the high and low today for the aforementioned Smokin' at The Half Note:



Regardless of the descriptions offered and seller accolades provided, there's been no relationship at all between quality, condition and/or price in the music I've bought on Amazon. I just returned The Intimate Ella CD that I bought from the only Amazon vendor offering it. The seller has 4.8 stars and this was advertised as a new disc. It arrived in a cracked box with cheaply placed, non-original clear plastic wrap and no original seal. My CD players would not recognize it, and only one of my computer disc drives would even load it - but it wouldn't play. The same vendor still has "4 left" according to Amazon.

This has been true for us all over the world for several years. My wife and I were in Romania 2 weeks ago and found a surprisingly (at least to us) large collection of musical instrument shops and wide availability of jazz recordings. Although I didn't find a single full depth archtop, there were many semis, huge piles of amplifiers, and jazz recordings in several shops (even bookstores, general stores, and cafes) at very reasonable prices. It's hard to place prices in global perspective because currency values vary so much - Romanian currency is worth very little against USD, GBP, Euros etc. These bins were in a large store that sold housewares, stationery, clothing, jewelry, and books - it was like bieng in a local department store n Philadelphia in 1960:

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

As an aside, there are some amazing albums out there for next to no money by some amazing artists and bands that you never knew made them. So I always read the liner notes before passing on one, and this is a classic example of a true hidden gem. We were browsing the bins at a used record shop in New Orleans when I found it, and I decided to buy it because I love the title song:.



When I looked at the credits, I couldn't believe my luck!

[Dennis D]

These responses reminded me again of the old Saturday morning ritual of heading to the record store - stores.......

One week I picked up this one and two others for what, a buck each ? First time I ever heard JS do ' I'm Old Fashioned..'

Just a moment...

: )

[wintermoon]

I've been following vinyl prices pretty closely for a long time, keep in mind that Amazon isn't the place to buy vintage vinyl.
Maybe 35 yrs ago when I was looking for Johnny Smith Roost lps you had to pay $25-50 for most titles in exc condition from established shops like the Princeton Record Exchange because they were extremely hard to find. Even great shops like the long defunct 3rd St Jazz in Philly which I literally patronized almost daily since I worked around the corner never had Johnny Smith records. Once the internet/ebay came about suddenly everything was in front of you, multiple copies in varying condition and prices were much lower.
Like most things, desirability/rarity and condition dictate prices.
Except for really rare titles most vintage jazz guitar vinyl isn't super desirable, therefore not very expensive, unless it's original Blue Note Grant Green pressings for example.

[2bornot2bop]

I’ve become kind of a vinyl snob. I generally only purchase an album, if it’s at minimum, on 180 gram vinyl. Last year I acquired Jim Hall’s Concierto on 180 gram vinyl, and I had missed the original release which was only $40, but I found a new version on Discogs for $80. Fortunately I’ve acquired Both of Miles’ KOB releases on 200 gram vinyl at great prices. Many people purchase them because they’re curious, play them once, and then sell them for cheap. Bottom line, look around before you buy, google it.

[sgosnell]

There is a big problem with vinyl LPs. There is now only one company in the world making lacquer discs for vinyl masters, and it seems to be on the brink of going out of business. The biggest manufacturer was in California, but it burned to the ground a few years ago. The last one standing is in Japan, where there is little regulation of toxic substances such as nitrocellulose lacquer, and it is rumored to be near extinction. If it goes down, there is no way to make new vinyl LPs other than via a different technology, and the ones which exist produce (according to audiophiles) far inferior audio quality. Starting up a plant which could produce the lacquer discs while complying with environmental regulations would be prohibitively expensive, and almost certainly will not happen. OTOH, CDs seem to be making somewhat of a comeback, so there's that.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I’ve become kind of a vinyl snob. I generally only purchase an album, if it’s at minimum, on 180 gram vinyl. Last year I acquired Jim Hall’s Concierto on 180 gram vinyl, and I had missed the original release which was only $40, but I found a new version on Discogs for $80. Fortunately I’ve acquired Both of Miles’ KOB releases on 200 gram vinyl at great prices. Many people purchase them because they’re curious, play them once, and then sell them for cheap. Bottom line, look around before you buy, google it.

I love great vinyl, and I've gone to great lengths to score some fine and rare pressings over the years. I dragged my wife from Philly to DC in 1973 to pick up Dark Side when the first ones became available at a shop on Dupont Circle. I found and traveled to grab the original Umbrella direct to disc double album by Rob McConnell and the Boss Brass. I chased and caught Akiyoshi / Tabackin big band's Road Song when it became available in the US. The original is an RCA Japan product that I think sounds better than 98% of all the recorded music I've ever heard.

I still play my 2000 or so albums on the Thorens TD125 I bought in 1969. So I have a lot of skin and a fair amount of $ in the vinyl game. But I learned long ago that I can be very happy with a mediocre pressing of a rare album that I wouldn't otherwise have at all. I listen to the music itself, not the medium or the mechanism of reproduction. If I close my eyes and picture the peformers live, the flaws recede into the background and the music steps forward.

So while I love fine vinyl, I don't fetishize the material or the mechanics of a record - and some of the current crop of "audiophile" vinyl is ridiculously expensive. If I come across one with music and/or performers I really want, I'll buy it. But most of my vinyl buying for years has been from the "used" bins at little shops in out of the way places. I have a good record cleaner, and most of the discs that are free of warps, visible scratches, and defects play well.

[pawlowski6132]

I’ve become kind of a vinyl snob. I generally only purchase an album, if it’s at minimum, on 180 gram vinyl. Last year I acquired Jim Hall’s Concierto on 180 gram vinyl, and I had missed the original release which was only $40, but I found a new version on Discogs for $80. Fortunately I’ve acquired Both of Miles’ KOB releases on 200 gram vinyl at great prices. Many people purchase them because they’re curious, play them once, and then sell them for cheap. Bottom line, look around before you buy, google it.

I'm with you. I can even put a finer point on that.

I'll only buy something that was originally recorded on tape (or direct-to-disc). I don't understand the point of listening to a digital recording or a digital re-master on vinyl (and vice versa).

Also, I try to stay away from current remaster/remix, even though the vinyl is superior to old original pressings. My thought is, a first pressing off of the original tape is the best fidelity available. A remaster even off the master tapes is a remaster off of tapes that have degraded over time. They're magnetic tapes, that's going to happen.

[pawlowski6132]

There is a big problem with vinyl LPs. There is now only one company in the world making lacquer discs for vinyl masters, and it seems to be on the brink of going out of business. The biggest manufacturer was in California, but it burned to the ground a few years ago. The last one standing is in Japan, where there is little regulation of toxic substances such as nitrocellulose lacquer, and it is rumored to be near extinction. If it goes down, there is no way to make new vinyl LPs other than via a different technology, and the ones which exist produce (according to audiophiles) far inferior audio quality. Starting up a plant which could produce the lacquer discs while complying with environmental regulations would be prohibitively expensive, and almost certainly will not happen. OTOH, CDs seem to be making somewhat of a comeback, so there's that.

That doesn't sound right. Are you sure?

[deacon Mark]

I have quite a large number of Johnny Smith vinyl, the Roost stuff. I never listen to it but if anyone interested contact me and I we can figure out a fair price. Not like I have much to lose. I just do not play them, and they are taking up space.

[sgosnell]

That doesn't sound right. Are you sure?

As sure as I am of anything else on the internet. There are multiple sources.

Wikipedia, but you can track the source footnotes if you want. The actual name of the remaining company is Public Record Company.
https://www.pbr.co.jp/master-en

Apollo Masters Corporation fire - Wikipedia

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I believe there are at least 5 active pressing plants in the US. They were all open about a year ago IIRC. Check out Nashville Record Pressing and United (both in Nashville), Third Man and Archer (both in Detroit), and Memphis Record Pressing,

[sgosnell]

There are many pressing plants, including at least one here in Texas. But I don't think a pressing plant is the same thing as one that makes lacquer masters for later pressing.

[Woody Sound]

Last night a guy came over to buy a high-end stereo component from me. He saw my CD collection, and said, "I hear CDs are making a comeback." I suddenly felt very out of touch.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

There are many pressing plants, including at least one here in Texas. But I don't think a pressing plant is the same thing as one that makes lacquer masters for later pressing.

I know that United does lacquer mastering. I haven’t checked the others.

[sgosnell]

The issue is not who does the mastering. The issue is manufacturing the discs used to make the masters. You can't master a disk without having a new blank disc to use.

[Doctor Jeff]

Man did I love vinyl back in the day.

I bought most of my collection in Atlanta at Wuxtry and Wax-n-Facts in the 80s. I have a fair number of somewhat collectible records, as well as audiophile pressings, but I'm not a super snob in terms of vinyl quality. Most of the records I bought were $2-4, and I got a couple a week for years.

I am playing more vinyl now than I've played in years. I found out that my OP Coltrane's Crescent has a scratch on the B side, which made me very sad. Time to look for another.

I have a 1970s Dual Turntable with Grado cartridge running through a Pioneer SX750 and 1980s Infinity RS speakers. Sounds pretty darn good.

I don't know if the market's up or down. I would imagine right this moment the vinyl stores in town--which have reappeared in the last few years--might not be doing great, but IDK. I shop at vintage stores A LOT, and there is always a big selection of all kinds of records are varying prices.