Modern Jazz Standards for Guitar any good?

[Christian Miller]

Almost certainly not, because Lennon and McCartney never even wrote down their ideas, because they believed if they were any good, they'd remember them. At least, that's the story. Paul McCartney never learned to read music.

I mean like tabs and chord charts even; I’m aware Lennon and McCartney couldn’t read. Get Back seems to bear out what you are saying.

People like Jon Lord, John Paul Jones and Rick Wakeman had musical educations. The Schumann brothers from Gentle Giant were all sophisticated musicians.

anyone learning keys is more likely to bump into music notation and classical music from an early age obviously and therefore read from childhood. I’m talking about guitar players who got into the instrument because they liked Gene Vincent and girls or whatever.

I'm assuming Jimmy Page could read because he played sessions and they surely didn't play the songs for musicians who couldn't read.

Maybe he did? I think I remember hearing he can read but not well, but perhaps I’m remembering wrong.

I think at this point it was in the land of the blind the one eyed man was king. Someone with a rock background who could read a bit would clean up, because most rock players weren’t from that background. Jazzers could read but generationally and culturally they’d always struggle to sound as authentic as our Jimmy.

The Wrecking Crew and Motown were jazz players learning to adapt of the popular music trends of the day; for rock centric players who could read I always feel that’s more Lukather’s generation (and he says that scene was on its way out anyway by the 80s as it was no longer necessary or common to do these highly arranged live room recordings.)

I think I may have heard of some session musician or other who couldn't read music, but was a particularly good soloist, but generally speaking, they had to be good, fast readers.

Again as Tim Pierce and Lukather point out the importance of these skills lessened, but reading chops are just useful generally. You’ll get parts for a show or something, but no pop producer or songwriter is going to write out a part for you unless it’s bloody Steely Dan or something. OTOH you will be expected to hear the changes of a song very quickly and be able to contribute stylistic parts and options for the producer. So you have to listen carefully to a lot of music and be abreast of the current trends.

The big example of a non reading player who could ace all the sessions, even orchestral ones, is Glenn Campbell, whose ears were legendary.

[Laurence Finston]

I mean like tabs and chord charts even; I’m aware Lennon and McCartney couldn’t read.

I think you're right that tabs have never been used in a professional environment. I doubt that they used chord charts for themselves, but I don't know for sure.

Maybe he did? I think I remember hearing he can read but not well, but perhaps I’m remembering wrong.

I don't know. You could be right.

I agree that being able to read is a valuable skill. I can read well, including the fancy stuff I've mentioned, but I'd trade it all in a second to be able to play like Erroll Garner, who couldn't read at all.

[Litterick]

I'm assuming Jimmy Page could read because he played sessions and they surely didn't play the songs for musicians who couldn't read. I think I may have heard of some session musician or other who couldn't read music, but was a particularly good soloist, but generally speaking, they had to be good, fast readers.

Vic Flick (the man who played the James Bond riff) said he helped Page in sessions. Page could barely read, but could imitate anything Flick played for him.

[Laurence Finston]

Vic Flick (the man who played the James Bond riff) said he helped Page in sessions. Page could barely read, but could imitate anything Flick played for him.

Thank you. I guess I was assuming too much.

[Vihar]

Vic Flick (the man who played the James Bond riff) said he helped Page in sessions. Page could barely read, but could imitate anything Flick played for him.

They were on the same Page.

[RunningBeagle]

Jeez...

I had the same reaction.

[PMB]

I wonder if the Beatles ever used tab? Now I’m interested in the history of tabs use in pop music… another rabbit hole lol. Watching Get Back suggests it was all aural and there wasn’t much written musical material in terms of chord charts or tabs, and I assume this is way everyone learned back then as materials on ‘how to rock guitar’ were pretty thin on the ground.

Many English pop/rock guitarists of the '60s, including Jimmy Page credited Bert Weedon's folio, Play in a Day as a helpful learning tool. However, in recounting their experiences, it was the chord grids rather than standard notation that left the biggest impression. Before that folio's release in 1957, Paul McCartney recounts taking a bus to the other side of Liverpool so that someone could show him how to play B7!

I may be wrong but it seems that the use of tab in guitar-based popular music can be traced back to acoustic folk-blues guitarist Stefan Grossman. He would regularly visit blues-gospel legend Reverend Gary Davis in the mid '60s for guitar lessons and needed a method to transcribe what his teacher demonstrated (this was before cassette player/recorders were widely available and many reel-to-reel units were too heavy and cumbersome to carry on a bus or train).

Grossman's tabs were idiosyncratic with the fret numbers written in the spaces rather than upon the lines of a staff (maybe he'd come across some older French lute tablature? If so, he decided to adopt the layout but use numbers rather than letter names). Although guitar-based books and magazines from that period often contained chord grids above a conventional staff, I don't recall seeing tab until mid to late '70s editions of Guitar Player magazine (often in articles written by Grossman!).

The following decade is when things really took off. The '80s saw a proliferation of guitar magazines and the arrival of people like Wolf Marshall and Dave Whitehill who turned popular guitar transcribing into a full-time career. One of these magazines (Guitar World?) eventually dropped conventional staff notation completely. A pity really, as I imagine there were some readers who were beginning to make the transition via tab.

[Litterick]

Eddie Van Halen claimed tab was invented to transcribe his playing.

[Laurence Finston]

I had no idea he was so old.

[Christian Miller]

Many English pop/rock guitarists of the '60s, including Jimmy Page credited Bert Weedon's folio, Play in a Day as a helpful learning tool. However, in recounting their experiences, it was the chord grids rather than standard notation that left the biggest impression. Before that folio's release in 1957, Paul McCartney recounts taking a bus to the other side of Liverpool so that someone could show him how to play B7!

I may be wrong but it seems that the use of tab in guitar-based popular music can be traced back to acoustic folk-blues guitarist Stefan Grossman. He would regularly visit blues-gospel legend Reverend Gary Davis in the mid '60s for guitar lessons and needed a method to transcribe what his teacher demonstrated (this was before cassette player/recorders were widely available and many reel-to-reel units were too heavy and cumbersome to carry on a bus or train).

Grossman's tabs were idiosyncratic with the fret numbers written in the spaces rather than upon the lines of a staff (maybe he'd come across some older French lute tablature? If so, he decided to adopt the layout but use numbers rather than letter names). Although guitar-based books and magazines from that period often contained chord grids above a conventional staff, I don't recall seeing tab until mid to late '70s editions of Guitar Player magazine (often in articles written by Grossman!).

The following decade is when things really took off. The '80s saw a proliferation of guitar magazines and the arrival of people like Wolf Marshall and Dave Whitehill who turned popular guitar transcribing into a full-time career. One of these magazines (Guitar World?) eventually dropped conventional staff notation completely. A pity really, as I imagine there were some readers who were beginning to make the transition via tab.

thanks! Top info

Eddie may have been technically wrong but spiritually correct; to notate the exact finger positions becomes much more critical in an era of shred guitar technique (which often relies on the physical characteristics of the instrument.)

[PMB]

Tab is arguably most useful when dealing with altered and open tunings. Speaking of Stefan Grossman, his Kicking Mule label released recordings in the '70s by British acoustic guitarists such as Davy Graham and John Renbourn along with fellow Americans and other European players who regularly retuned their guitars. Many of those recordings came out with accompanying booklets containing tablature transcriptions.

[KingKong]

Great resource, thanks for flagging it up! I’ll be checking this out.

EDIT: urgh, tab. I know they have to do it but I was hoping for notation only.

Urgh, notation. I know they have to do it but I was hoping for tab only.

[KingKong]

Vic Flick (the man who played the James Bond riff) said he helped Page in sessions. Page could barely read, but could imitate anything Flick played for him.

The sort of stuff page played sessions on was hardly worthy of writing down, early 60s rock, not a lot to it, all very similar.

[Christian Miller]

Urgh, notation. I know they have to do it but I was hoping for tab only.

Yeah sax players and pianists - GET WITH THE PROGRAM!

Why should we read your special notation?

For years guitarists have felt bad about not being able to read music because we fail to decode PIANO TABLATURE onto our own instruments. Look how quickly they laugh at us when we turn the tables!!!!

B*st*rds!!!!!

[KingKong]

Yeah sax players and pianists - GET WITH THE PROGRAM!

Why should we read your special notation?

For years guitarists have felt bad about not being able to read music because we fail to decode PIANO TABLATURE onto our own instruments. Look how quickly they laugh at us when we turn the tables!!!!

B*st*rds!!!!!

Just pulling ur leg Christian, although u know that I reckon. Funnily enough I did a bit of sight reading on the piano over Xmas, star wars main theme, get in! Darf Vader himself couldn't have played it better.

The book is called '....FOR GUITARISTS' though so those damned sax players need to learn how to translate guitar tabs to sax notes.

[supersoul]

I wonder if the Beatles ever used tab?

tabs, they used tabs of acid

There have been many times when I've figured out a guitar part by ear off the record and then I'll see live concert footage and they'll play it differently, like in a completely different position, different picking technique, open strings, etc. So tab can be useful to get ideas for how to technically play things.

I've never been handed a chart with tab and I don't use it very often now. Even if it's there I just ignore it. But when I was just starting out I used it a lot.

[Vihar]

Eddie Van Halen claimed tab was invented to transcribe his playing.

Might as well jump to the 5150th measure.

[Average Joe]

Well, I bought it, and imho it's neither foul nor fish. I guess i had hoped that with the inclusion of tab there would be transcriptions of the actual performance of the melody as recorded by the artist. Not the solo, but at least the head as Cardenas, Sco, McCann, etc play it. But it's bare-bones tab of a lead sheet. Which imho makes the tab superfluous/near useless.

My fault for not researching before buying, but yeah, I'm a bit disappointed in the product.

[grahambop]

Well, I bought it, and imho it's neither foul nor fish. I guess i had hoped that with the inclusion of tab there would be transcriptions of the actual performance of the melody as recorded by the artist. Not the solo, but at least the head as Cardenas, Sco, McCann, etc play it. But it's bare-bones tab of a lead sheet. Which imho makes the tab superfluous/near useless.

My fault for not researching before buying, but yeah, I'm a bit disappointed in the product.

I’m not sure what you mean - are you saying the music is inaccurate or leaves things out of the melody that were played on the recording? The pages I’ve seen on the Amazon ‘look inside’ feature look pretty detailed to me. However it has to be said I’m not familiar with those particular tunes.