Good ears are innate, can't be learned.

**franco6719** · 05-18-2009, 08:10 AM

I've been working on identifying these 7th- chord inversions for about three weeks now. No progress. In fact, I think I'm getting worse at it.

The central question of all questions: Is this whole ear thing (and therefore musicality in general) just innate and unlearnable and I must give it up or what?

**randalljazz** · 05-18-2009, 01:51 PM

sing the chords. sing the inversions. "natural ability" varies, but we can all continue to improve. (it's a lot of work!!)

**franco6719** · 05-18-2009, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by randalljazz

sing the chords. sing the inversions. "natural ability" varies, but we can all continue to improve. (it's a lot of work!!)

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!! That's what I'm doing. I think I'm finding that my ear is so damned habituated to finding the root and then singing up the rest of the chord that I have trouble distinguishing the bottom notes, except when it is obvious like Maj7 third inversion. It's a pain in the tail.

Anyway, I'm feeling a little better now after refusing to get obsessed. I'll work on other things and then come back.

**franco6719** · 05-18-2009, 02:19 PM

Oh, i see your point. I should try singing the inversions away from the computer programs and everything. Good point. If I can sing them, without instrument or anything.....Hadn't thought about it for some reason. Thanks. It will be a lot of work indeed, but the way I'm doing it now seems to be stale-mate or something.

**derek** · 05-18-2009, 04:34 PM

I have a Berklee video that covers some of this. Harmonic Ear Training by Roberta Radley. I have only watched it once and haven't really worked with it yet, but looks great. Good luck

Store - Harmonic Ear Training

**hubert54** · 05-18-2009, 04:57 PM

dear Franco,

sing, sing, even if you do it "wrong"
not in Your bathroom,
sing into your ears...
nothing more instruments needed.
But the real opposite: sing with your ears
trust them and nothing else
repeat singing without words
repeat and trust
as a kind of "unplugged Zen"
your ears will find a way.

**wordsmith** · 05-18-2009, 06:42 PM

....is that people (myself included) download the training software, and quickly dive into lots of exercises and tests.......because it's quick and easy to do that.
Perhaps this approach simply overloads the brain. Formal study, I believe, can last for years.
Better maybe is just to do one interval or whatever at a time until you have it, and then go on to another whilst revising the first from time to time so you don't lose it, and so on.

**Joe Dalton** · 05-19-2009, 03:40 AM

Franko see if you can find a CD with chord inversions. My mp3 player has a cd on it that just plays chords and inversions and then plays them as intervals and then names the chord.

**hubert54** · 05-19-2009, 10:07 AM

and for all
the "brain" can't be overloaded as it's mostly used 5 percent of
that's why "Feldenkrais" stays aware.

**fep** · 05-19-2009, 06:42 PM

Hey Franco,

I just got back from my first part of my final in second semester Ear Training... 1) interval recognition (melodic and rhythmic, all intervals), 2) Chord and inversion recognition (major, minor, diminished, augmented all inversions), 3) Rhythmic dictation, 4) Melodic dictation (with intervals up to a 5th, no accidentals), 5) Two part dictation 6) 4 Part dication with analysis (choral music with all the diatonic chords possible), 7) Error detection (from a melody intervals up to a 5th).

The second part of the final is sight singing which will be this Thursday.

So... you're working on inversions of 7th chords. The point of me listing all the above is give you a list of things that perhaps you should master before going on to inversions of 7th chords... just in case you're getting ahead of yourself. I think for those of us that find ear training a difficult class, we need to do things in the proper order.

And... you've obviously been making progress on your ear training, you're working on college 2nd year material.

Cheers,

Frank

P.S. To encourage you (and to gloat just a little), I find ear training extremely difficult, but even still I have an 89.5% overall score going into the final (90% and above is an A

). And I'm pretty old to be working on ear training, I'm old enough to be the parent of most of the students.

**hubert54** · 05-20-2009, 01:27 AM

Hi fep,

very useful comment
I always forget about that it's "work"
and there could be no work without "passion".

all the best

**Luan** · 05-20-2009, 02:04 AM

There isn't a single thing in music that can't be learned, and I really mean it, there's NOTHING you can't learn.
Even perfect pitch, it's easier than most people think.

**hubert54** · 05-20-2009, 04:38 AM

certainly, put a set of strings on a brick
"another brick in the wall"
btw. somewhat "musical - not muscular - feeling" might be innate
but it depends - maybe -
I stop
might be I'm not competent.

**Joe Dalton** · 05-20-2009, 04:44 AM

Actually it's debated if perfect pitch can be learned at a very early age but later in life it's pretty much agreed it can't be.

You probably mean perfect relative pitch

**hubert54** · 05-20-2009, 04:52 AM

hm, Joe

that's a real interesting opinion, not about absolute hearing or so,
but I even remember a youth musical teacher, who seemed to tell me( oh no he transmitted something to me...)
something about a chord - ingrained in my brain -
The C-major chord -
what the hell was happening there??
the major chord notes
I believe I know the "fretboard" really well, although it always
appears to be a "Bird" - ornithology, not music.

**Joe Dalton** · 05-20-2009, 05:08 AM

I'm not sure what he was refering to but there isn't a thing like an ingrained chord. What we respond to are sounds we've hear in our life, we aren't born with them, barring music you picked up in womb but as far as I know noone researched that yet.

As a side note, there is nothing I hated more than solfege and I remember the first day at a conservatory there was this guy and he could hear so incredibly well I was disheartened. This guy could pick out a 5 note chord, me, I couldn't do anything like that. But gradually it comes, you mind will store those intervals and sooner or later... mostly later you will notice that you've made incredible progress.

**franco6719** · 05-20-2009, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by fep

Hey Franco,

I just got back from my first part of my final in second semester Ear Training... 1) interval recognition (melodic and rhythmic, all intervals), 2) Chord and inversion recognition (major, minor, diminished, augmented all inversions), 3) Rhythmic dictation, 4) Melodic dictation (with intervals up to a 5th, no accidentals), 5) Two part dictation 6) 4 Part dication with analysis (choral music with all the diatonic chords possible), 7) Error detection (from a melody intervals up to a 5th).

The second part of the final is sight singing which will be this Thursday.

So... you're working on inversions of 7th chords. The point of me listing all the above is give you a list of things that perhaps you should master before going on to inversions of 7th chords... just in case you're getting ahead of yourself. I think for those of us that find ear training a difficult class, we need to do things in the proper order.

And... you've obviously been making progress on your ear training, you're working on college 2nd year material.

Cheers,

Frank

P.S. To encourage you (and to gloat just a little), I find ear training extremely difficult, but even still I have an 89.5% overall score going into the final (90% and above is an A

). And I'm pretty old to be working on ear training, I'm old enough to be the parent of most of the students.

I posted a reply to this, but I hit some key on my computer and the damned thing disappeared. Maybe it was too long anyway.

I was just saying that it is hard to keep things well-ordered and follow some standard sequence without the guidance of a teacher obviously. But I do the best I can. What I was trying to do was to have separate sub-sections of ear training practice. I'm pretty sure I have mastered the basic interval recognition (I test myself every once in a while though with DIFFERENT programs just to be sure). So, of course, I have made some progress. Now, I work mostly on melodic dictation and trying to play back melodies on the instrument, as this seems to me to be an extension and application of the interval recognition.

Chord stuff seems like something different. So, I set apart some time just for that. I started with triads and then went to the Major7, dom7, minor7, dim7 (in root position). I had those pretty well, so I started trying the inversions. Anyway, I may stepped ahead somewhere because I'm going by my own order and doing the chord stuff at the same time as the other stuff.

**franco6719** · 05-20-2009, 05:12 AM

"2) Chord and inversion recognition (major, minor, diminished, augmented all inversions), 3) Rhythmic dictation, 4) Melodic dictation (with intervals up to a 5th, no accidentals)"

I am definitely not skipping this stuff though. This is my main focus now.

**franco6719** · 05-20-2009, 05:16 AM

"Actually it's debated if perfect pitch can be learned at a very early age but later in life it's pretty much agreed it can't be.

You probably mean perfect relative pitch."

Yeah, that seems to be the scientific consensus.

**fep** · 05-20-2009, 10:39 AM

Franco,

Perhaps it's all relative... to your expectations.

If you had been sitting next to me through my ear training class it's sounds like you'd be getting an A grade. And if that was the case you'd probably be feeling good about your progress.

**hubert54** · 05-20-2009, 04:36 PM

If you had been sitting next to me through my ear training class it's sounds like you'd be getting an A grade. And if that was the case you'd probably be feeling good about your progress.
quote or no quote
a naive question: what has been earlier born? The hen or the egg?
I'm wondering about what a"teacher" is.
But in my experience a little "dialogue" with a man who knows to bring a
fretboard up to move
made a lot of changing the point of view.
Was it Orpheus?
a useless question - but teachers (some of them) force
you to use your instrument.
maybe its expensive - but*s your choice or mine

But where come "teachers" from?
I'm an autodidact, but even some minutes with a great guy
I learned more than years before.
Don't worry about the few words.
challenging forum - sometimes with no real useful answers

**wordsmith** · 05-20-2009, 06:29 PM

....in the nicest possible way......you do my brain in!

**hubert54** · 05-21-2009, 04:03 AM

sinnlos, "cogito, ergo sum"?
playing the guitar, ergo sum?

never mind
it's a long long way home

**franco6719** · 05-21-2009, 05:02 AM

Hubert is a puzzle designer or poetical fellow.

"But in my experience a little "dialogue" with a man who knows to bring a
fretboard up to move
made a lot of changing the point of view."
Was it Orpheus?

Pure poetry!! You should publish that stuff.

**hubert54** · 05-21-2009, 05:21 PM

certainly 80 percents of my "postings" sound a little bit like a not tuned tritonus. But the other ones are of good intention because I don't want to offend somebody here. Otherwise I would have left the forum rapidly with Dirk's switch (btw. thank you for administrating...)
On the other hand, I try to write spontaneously, and I'm trying to improve my english.
a little bit of patience

what exactly might mean "you do my brain in"?

and for all - I apologize .