Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Posts 101 to 125 of 250
  1. #101

    User Info Menu

    actually, eec did a lovely cover of one of his pops great tunes



    & neneh cherry is his daughter...she recently cut some stuff with a pretty "out" scandinavian trio

    (despite the seemingly bored crowd!! haha)



    had the pleasure of seeing don cherry around a few times..one of the greats

    talk about free improvising!!..thats what he was

    cheers

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

    User Info Menu

    Just thought I'd share this VERY interesting, Bruce emailed the link to me after a series of exchanges where I told him I was getting worse at the one note stuff. I had a break through today where I started to hear D# rather than Eb, I know it's the same note but it was all about HOW I was hearing it, things are changing and I'm EXCITED. I owe you Alex!

    http://www.treygunn.com/blog/2015/10...he-breath.html

  4. #103

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    but this is definitely NOT the Bruce Arnold Method. Arnold got all this stuff from Charlie Banacos (along with all his approach note stuff).

    Yes, he is pretty clear about that. I call it the Bruce Method because that's who I learned it from. Bruce also studied with Bergonzi and a classical pianist as well. He is a good guy, or he wouldn't have allowed me to continue my studies... let's just say I was stupid in the past
    an Albert King lick doesn't become a Stevie Ray Vaughan lick just because Stevie was the first time you​ heard it

  5. #104
    I'm glad that many people got something out of this thread. However, I may ask the head of the website to remove this thread. Although I think a lot of good came from this thread, I could see how this thread could cause harm.

    Thanks for listening, peeps

  6. #105

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar
    Just thought I'd share this VERY interesting, Bruce emailed the link to me after a series of exchanges where I told him I was getting worse at the one note stuff. I had a break through today where I started to hear D# rather than Eb, I know it's the same note but it was all about HOW I was hearing it, things are changing and I'm EXCITED. I owe you Alex!

    Trey Gunn - Blog - Inner Hearing, Micro-twitches and the Breath
    I very much enjoyed reading your blog (I take it's yours?) bearing in mind what you said I am revisiting the One Note Exercise.

    I am also having fun solfeging up melodies with respect to one key centre. It is hard to hear when the chords change sometimes isn't it? With this in mind I will probably email Bruce for suggestions when I get back from my travels. I think the exercises you mentioned sound like they address these aspects.

  7. #106
    I started the blog, but it is really everyone's who contributed. I am scared to ask Bruce to check out this thread, because although we have a good teacher-student relationship, I am worried that he will be beyond upset that I shared some of the concepts that you need to buy courses to access. A lot of them are on his free FAQ...

    You know what, I'll ask him this weekend. I just don't want to get sued over this. I don't think he's the guy to do that to me, but I really should have asked before posting all this.

    I guess I was excited. I find something I love and I wanna share it, especially if it helps me achieve something in myself that I couldn't achieve before.

    That was the whole point of this thread.

    Not a sales pitch.

  8. #107
    I never studied with Charlie, but I know about his legacy.

    Bruce tells me stories about Charlie and I just sit and listen. The way he describes it is akin to Homer and the Odyssey. An epic poem of sorts.

    Bruce took this ideas and applied them to technology. So you can practice wherever you want. As a high school teacher, I need to find ways to cram practice time into my day. So yes, the concept is not Bruce's. But I wouldn't say Bruce found a way to make money off of Charlie (though making a living in music education never hurts, right?)

    Bruce found a way to make the studies more accessible to students, even if they weren't in a practice room. I practice these courses while driving, flying, in a subway car, on a walk, going to sleep, getting up, running to the deli, etc.

    The studies resonated with me. That's why I urge others to check them out. Daesin, do you live in NYC? It's hard to find peeps that know about Bruce... and Charlie...

    I was just annoyed because you didn't give me the context. Now I hear where you are coming from (all pun intended)


  9. #108
    I guess this thread is up for good...

    Friends don't let friends start threads without thinking...

    Just hope Bruce sees this as a way to introduce more people to Charlie Banaco's concepts and the materials therein

    Can't afford a lawsuit... too many expensives

  10. #109

    User Info Menu

    Irez - pardon me for asking, but what are you looking to accomplish with this specific approach to ear training? I get the impression that you are a working jazz player / performer /student. Are your ears not yet 'trained'?

    This is not meant to be in any way facetious or provocative. I never specifically trained my ears taking a course or specific method of study. Just happened along the way for me. So why focus so intently on this area unless there are significant deficiencies? It's like spending a lot of money on multivitamins when you already eat a healthy diet. Is it worth it or necessary?

  11. #110

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    Irez - pardon me for asking, but what are you looking to accomplish with this specific approach to ear training? I get the impression that you are a working jazz player / performer /student. Are your ears not yet 'trained'?

    This is not meant to be in any way facetious or provocative. I never specifically trained my ears taking a course or specific method of study. Just happened along the way for me. So why focus so intently on this area unless there are significant deficiencies? It's like spending a lot of money on multivitamins when you already eat a healthy diet. Is it worth it or necessary?
    I'm not at all trying to answer for Irez here just give my own personal answer.

    I guess some people (me included) take longer to get their s**t together when it comes to ears, I spent years playing lines and licks without actually being able to hear the changes.

    I'm sure we all learn in different ways my friend at college got his ears together by using any tonic then on his way to lessons used car licence plates to sing intervals.

    If all this happens organically then great, some people just need to get specific, even Miles talks about ear training in certain interviews becoming a "scientist of sound" etc.

    I know by using the Banacos /Arnold teachings that I just find it hard to hear certain things so it's great for me to practice them especially when I can't get to a guitar

    Anyway again not trying to answer for Alex, just my 2 peneth

  12. #111
    I am a high school teacher who happens to be obsessed with music.

    Good question.

    I hope to reach a level where I can play anything anywhere with any person in any genre to the highest level possible. I want everything to be improvised and based in the musical moment. No preconceived voicings or chord progressions. Just my two ears and my brain.

    I want the guitar to what Segovia has said was "a set of binoculars looking through the wrong way"

    The guitar as a mini orchestra, symphony, sonic atmosphere creator.

    I want to immitate string sections, piano, brass sections, vocal choirs...

    The ear is always expanding.

    If you think that ear training is ever done than you don't know about Charlie Banaco's approach to ear training. You train your ear for as long as you train your hands.

    Learn to hear single notes, dyads, triads, 7th chords completely by ear

    Learn to hear metric modulation without counting

    Learn to hear 32 bar forms without taping your feet or snapping fingers

    Learn to hear true modulation

    Learn to sing in any key or tonal area, including diminished, augmented, and other hextonic configurations.

    Learn to use set theory to arrange a standard or write a new piece.

    Learn how to communicate with the audience and my band mates so true music can surface.

    Like I said before.

    I have 3 passions:

    1. Learning

    2. Music

    3. My Girlfriend

    A passion for me is a life long pursuit. Ear training combines the first two passions. My girlfriend keeps me strong and stable enough to pursue my other passions (she is the bedrock of it all)

    Make sense?

    Without ear training, IMHO, the guitar is just a piece of wood with strings attached.

    With ear training, the guitar becomes my vessel to express all of the beauty and hardship that I observe and live. 28 years on this earth, and I've still been through some real tough shit. I also met the woman of my life, she's the one.

    I want to use music to communicate what words fail to speak.
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-31-2015 at 12:11 PM.

  13. #112
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    I guess this thread is up for good...

    Friends don't let friends start threads without thinking...

    Just hope Bruce sees this as a way to introduce more people to Charlie Banaco's concepts and the materials therein

    Can't afford a lawsuit... too many expensives
    I've got enough value from the information here to make me watch Bruce Arnold on TrueFire and order the first book - and your enthusiasm is a credit to you (and to Bruce Arnold). Nice one!

  14. #113
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    Irez - pardon me for asking, but what are you looking to accomplish with this specific approach to ear training? I get the impression that you are a working jazz player / performer /student. Are your ears not yet 'trained'?

    This is not meant to be in any way facetious or provocative. I never specifically trained my ears taking a course or specific method of study. Just happened along the way for me. So why focus so intently on this area unless there are significant deficiencies? It's like spending a lot of money on multivitamins when you already eat a healthy diet. Is it worth it or necessary?
    Great question, Jay. I 'get' it, too - but I'm sure Irez can break it down.

    (But I'll reiterate an earlier - perhaps obvious - point, that the independent listening/hearing serves interactive listening/hearing. Easier said than done in the 'noise of the moment'.)

  15. #114

    User Info Menu

    I don't disagree with your goals, but frankly, the best way to train your ears is to follow Joe Pass' immortal advice - learn tunes. I understand that developing the sensitivity to relative intervals (relative to the tonic and to the chord - tone colors like 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, etc) is important, but when you analyze the major and minor harmonic scales, it is not that complicated. Especially if you hear the most fundamental intervals that create tension or release in the harmonic context.

    I would stress that last point - one needs to hear intervals in their harmonic context so that they become second nature. For example I am so very fond of diminished chords and flat fifths. Because the are transitional chords as are the tones that characterize the chords. That is why I find specific "ear training exercises" to be unnecessary. Now, admittedly I've been playing over a half century at this point, and experience does count in this regard.

    I'm not questioning the ultimate goal so much as the path to get there. In any case if it rocks your world, so be it. Whatever works for you. I do like the idea of singing every day. I never, however, do that nonsense of 'singing the interval out loud' which I consider similar to "chanting the modes" - totally useless in my humble opinion. You have to feel it and hear it, not dissect it.

  16. #115
    Targuit,

    This method works for the most important person in my journey: ME

    Whatever works for you is whatever works for you.

    But telling me something is wrong when you don't know how I apply my studies is a little...

    naive...

    Nothing is a miracle pill

    Rome wasn't built in a day

    I use solfege to and my ear training studies to learn the tune

    Away from the guitar

    Away from the piano

    Relying on a simple cadence to sing through an entire jazz standard

    The musical mind should dictate what you play

    Your inner ear, if you will

    Not the guitar

    **washes hands**

    1. You don't know who I studied with

    2. You don't know what I studied before to build my foundation

    3. You've never seen me play in person

    I know you mean well, but I never asked for advice. I'm sharing what worked for me, because it might work for others. At this point I already have a clear path on how I will continue developing my ear. Thanks for the advice, I am sure just learning tunes worked great for you because it instilled context and form into your playing.

    However, I don't wanna use the guitar to learn how to improvise anymore.

    I want to use my ear to learn how to improvise

    The guitar just happens to be my vessel.


    That could be a very confusing concept to those that aren't on my path. But there are many musicians who approach the study of music this way. Try it before you knock it. You never know what you might learn If not, all good

    Play on, brotha
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-31-2015 at 04:03 PM.

  17. #116

    User Info Menu

    Chill, my friend. I'm not criticizing your method, just trying to understand exactly what it entails and to what purpose. Are your reading skills refined or rough? Can you read an unfamiliar piece of sheet music and "hear it" in your mind?

    The funny thing is that there are only twelve notes in the Western chromatic scale in an octave. Just twelve. So the most complex music is still the product of arranging those twelve tones, allowing that you can extend into several octaves.

    I think I will google 'ear training' and try to find out just what it is you seek to accomplish and how.

  18. #117

    User Info Menu

    Prehearing as you define it, however, would imply that you are playing a phrase or measures as if you were reading them off a page of notated classical music. Unless that is what you are doing, in practice the "prehearing" is more determining 'spontaneously' where you want to take your musical line. There is a degree of "where will I take this phrase", but it is more spontaneous than that, deriving from the interaction of the musical lines - playing off the melody, off the bass, the rhythm pattern. It involves listening and responding. Otherwise it would not be "jazz".

    What makes the difference between a beautiful sixteen measures of a coherent, incisive solo and random wanking in the aisles of GC? Experience, knowledge, instinct - chops. That you cannot buy or copy off a transcription of John Coltrane. Nor learn from ear training per se. That is the whole enchilada.

    Last edited by targuit; 11-01-2015 at 05:06 AM.

  19. #118
    So, how did Ed do this whole "improvised orchestra" thing?

    He had HUGE ears

    How did he get these huge ears? Probably from playing with a bunch of kick ass musicians, probably from listening to a bunch of records, maybe because he had a piano... That last bit... a piano?

    Why do I say piano? Well... many of his chords sound pianistic.

    Listen to this:



    Then listen to this:



    My point is that Ed uses many of the same mechanics that modern pianists used of the day. This set him apart from other guitarists. Remember that Jim Hall (the other master of all this comping and counter point) said that the only other guitarist that scared him was Ed Bickert. It was Jim and recommended Ed to Paul Desmond, when Paul went up to the land of square tires, fart jokes, and a lot of talk of boots (I love Canada, by the way).

    What are some of those mechanics?

    I will share as much as I can without getting in trouble with anyone

    1. Elusion - being deceptive with the pulse. Not being tied to the quarter note. Being syncopated. Using hemiola.

    Listen to Bill Evans here:




    2. small voicings. Listen to Bud Powell here:



    Shell voicings, and I am not talking about guide tone voicings (those are a little different)


    3. Moving partial voices around and playing into chords. Listen to Jim Hall here, his stuff with Art Farmer was always beautiful :



    Rhythmic and harmonic interplay... Beautiful

    4. LISTENING to the soloist and responding tastefully. Not going into a conversation with a list of demands. Comping the same way for every soloist is like starting a conversation with a list of demands. Think on that one.
    Last edited by Irez87; 11-01-2015 at 07:15 AM.

  20. #119
    Phrasing, as I have learned it, relates not so much to how we start a line of improvisation. The more important tidbit is how we end the phrase.

    Bruce taught this to me as long line rhythm, but this is not new at all or his concept.

    Here's the thing. Most music works on phrases. Phrases are usually constructed around 2 measure frameworks, 4 measure frameworks, 8 measure frameworks. Most music, not just jazz. I did a pod cast on this thread about this very phenomenon.

    Therefore, you can be in the musical moment, but you always want to be aware of where your phrase will end within that 2 measure, 4 measure, and 8 measure framework.

    This is why counting doesn't work when you start playing jazz at a very high level. If you have to tap your foot to keep time, you will be too caught up in the micro to be aware of the macro. Drummers now label this phenomenon as marcro time (as opposed to micro time).

    This concept of phrasing is also tied to comping. That's why Jim Hall sounds like Jim Hall, and Ed sounds like Ed. They both know how to manipulate harmony spontaneously within these phrase-al frameworks.

    Here is some of my own playing. It's not where I want it to be, but it is getting closer every day. This was the first time I played a ballad in this manner (I am the last guitarist on this take) :



    Check the 11:00 mark to hear me
    Last edited by Irez87; 11-01-2015 at 07:42 AM.

  21. #120
    By the way, I consider myself a musician, but not a professional musician. Just like many of you here, I have a day job, and I want to start a family. I teach high school Special Education. That job is extremely demanding of my time and energy. It is also a passion of mine.

    But...then again... so is music

    My passions in order of importance:

    1. My girlfriend

    2. My music

    3. My job

    Bruce Arnold's packaging of Banaco's concepts into Mp3s allows me to practice at the same level as Brad Mehldau while still putting money on the table. It wasn't easy, I am still learning from his courses 5 years later, but that's the thing, I am still learning. Ear is the hidden word in learning, cool huh ? Seriously, though, I am still expanding my inner ear.

    I hope my explanation wasn't too pedantic, but I had to do it. Not so much for you, more for everyone else who doubted me here. Difference with you Targuit, is that you offered to listen and have a dialogue.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by Irez87; 11-01-2015 at 07:36 AM.

  22. #121
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    Prehearing as you define it, however, would imply that you are playing a phrase or measures as if you were reading them off a page of notated classical music. Unless that is what you are doing, in practice the "prehearing" is more determining 'spontaneously' where you want to take your musical line. There is a degree of "where will I take this phrase", but it is more spontaneous than that, deriving from the interaction of the musical lines - playing off the melody, off the bass, the rhythm pattern. It involves listening and responding. Otherwise it would not be "jazz".

    What makes the difference between a beautiful sixteen measures of a coherent, incisive solo and random wanking in the aisles of GC? Experience, knowledge, instinct - chops. That you cannot buy or copy off a transcription of John Coltrane. Nor learn from ear training per se. That is the whole enchilada.
    I agree.

    I see a parallel with language acquisition (something I always lean on, as it works for me) as follows: developing phonological awareness and control benefits not beginners but those who are already competent users - it enables them to instantly decode fast connected sounds produced by unsympathetic interlocutors about unfamiliar abstractions.

    Every neighbourhood over here has its own wind, brass & percussion ensemble (part of the local Fallas associations, of which there's one on the block where I live), and I often hear them in chorus as they drill solfège of Spanish and Italian melody. Many of these young people take full advantage of ubiquitous 'jazz education' courses; I've heard some of them sing fast Parker and Coltrane solos in solfège - and I can't help but be impressed at witnessing that feat.

    But it's really a party trick. Although these players have the 'chops' to recite/chant those sounds, they can't conceive or create them - yet.

    They also lack sophistication (which is usually charming, but can be annoying and tiresome).

    On the other hand, many of them do acquire
    Experience, knowledge, instinct
    But many of these players sound the same. I suspect that the particular application of solfège to ear-training - for 'jazz' - is a contributing factor.

    Besides, at least a dozen 'names' have (independently) said to me that 'There's only one key'. I used to think that was just a cool-sounding way of saying they know music and their instrument thoroughly, but now I relate it to what Bruce Arnold says about referencing sounds - and to what Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote about self-reliance.

    Ear-training:"Ne te quaesiveris extra."
    Last edited by destinytot; 11-01-2015 at 09:14 AM. Reason: spelling

  23. #122
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    Phrasing, as I have learned it, relates not so much to how we start a line of improvisation.
    Without wishing to contradict, the 'pre-phrasing' that characterises my musical heroes involves starting lines 'early'.

    EDIT By way of example, my own vocal phrasing - a conflation of influences:
    Last edited by destinytot; 11-01-2015 at 09:27 AM. Reason: addition

  24. #123

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    Phrasing, as I have learned it, relates not so much to how we start a line of improvisation. The more important tidbit is how we end the phrase.

    Bruce taught this to me as long line rhythm, but this is not new at all or his concept.

    Here's the thing. Most music works on phrases. Phrases are usually constructed around 2 measure frameworks, 4 measure frameworks, 8 measure frameworks. Most music, not just jazz. I did a pod cast on this thread about this very phenomenon.

    Therefore, you can be in the musical moment, but you always want to be aware of where your phrase will end within that 2 measure, 4 measure, and 8 measure framework.

    This is why counting doesn't work when you start playing jazz at a very high level. If you have to tap your foot to keep time, you will be too caught up in the micro to be aware of the macro. Drummers now label this phenomenon as marcro time (as opposed to micro time).

    This concept of phrasing is also tied to comping. That's why Jim Hall sounds like Jim Hall, and Ed sounds like Ed. They both know how to manipulate harmony spontaneously within these phrase-al frameworks.

    Here is some of my own playing. It's not where I want it to be, but it is getting closer every day. This was the first time I played a ballad in this manner (I am the last guitarist on this take) :



    Check the 11:00 mark to hear me
    Hal galper has a lot of interesting things to say here check Bach to bebop

  25. #124

    User Info Menu

    I think we are talking in a common language here. I appreciate the rapprochement, Alex. We all try to systematize our approach on fundamental principles to describe something that will always be beyond words to describe. But I agree with your comments about destinations with the phrase. I think it is not much where you start your phrase as where you intend to go with it - your destination. So much so, that when I improvise I focus on where I intend to go - some would call that 'target tones'. I also feel the rhythmic figures.

    I used to think that when you improvise, you have to mentally and / or vocally scat the line internally to have cohesiveness and logical development - I think that is true largely. But I don't think you have to scat the entire phrase but rather the destination point in the phrase. In other words to get from point A to point B which might be a measure or two apart, I tend to think of those points, allowing my subconscious to take me there.

    This gets me to an another dimension of improvisation from a scientific evidence based experiment. Some neurologists who are also musicians and interested in this whole question of improvisation, creativity and how musicians function created a special keyboard that could be used during MRI exam of the brain. (You cannot wear metal into an MRI device because the powerful magnets will rip it or you apart.) So they had experienced professional keyboard players improvise while undergoing MRI exams. The areas of the brain that were activated extensively were the same areas that are involved in the dream REM phase of sleep and nuclei that function when you narrate a story about yourself.

    When you dream, your subconscious often seems to impose an order to your dream elements, which may not be immediately obvious to you when awake. As a physician, my interpretation (which may be incorrect, of course) of the studies suggest that improvisers "dream" the music. That is, at some point they relax their critical Superego consciousness and allow their subconscious to take the wheel - to narrate the story, so to speak.

    I believe in this so much that I search for ways to channel that state of mind consistently. I think it is about trying to access that state like getting into the Flow, as the term goes. Flow state. Where the music seems to come through you as the vessel. But to get there paradoxically you have to surrender the wheel to your subconscious, which is kind of a courageous act, especially if you are on stage.

    This all ties into the comments by great improvisers like Sonny Rollins and others about those peak moments on stage when they attain that flow state of grace. Not every moment, not every night - but that is what they search for like addicts for their drugs. And all this ties into why we dedicate years of our life virtually to pursuing our musical fix as well as the spiritual aspect of playing.

    Anyway, I realize this all veers away from the focus of your thread, so I will desist in commenting. But I will try to link those studies for anyone interested in reading about them.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...RdXVRkAxPVE85g



    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...i0h87j76e3aOSw
    Last edited by targuit; 11-01-2015 at 10:42 AM.

  26. #125
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    I think it is not much where you start your phrase as where you intend to go with it - your destination. So much so, that when I improvise I focus on where I intend to go - some would call that 'target tones'.
    I'm intrigued to hear an example, Jay. Would you mind posting something improvised? If it isn't relevant or appropriate to post here, perhaps on another thread? I'd be grateful for a chance to hear it and would listen without judgement.