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A while back, someone here said, "My main concern right now is amassing a mountain of vocabulary." And several "+1s" followed -- so, even though I'm not sure about "amassing a mountain" -- I am interested to know how players "amass" so many licks. Do you write them down and then review (practice) them at various intervals, the way we learned our multiplication tables, for example, or do you record them and listen to them -- or just start playing them and hope you remember them...or what?
Do you have a method you'd share?
Also: for a player of, say, ten years -- approximately how many licks might he know? A hundred? Five hundred? Thousands?
Thanks!
KojoLast edited by Dirk; 11-17-2019 at 09:37 AM.
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07-08-2012 04:57 PM
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I second this question, especially, "Do you have a method you'd share?".
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A couple of great players that I've had the pleasure of studying with have told me that you don't necessarily need that many.
"You need one that goes up, and one that goes down. One for a major ii-V, and one for a minor ii-V."
If you look at it in base terms, that's 4 licks, and that might seem like hardly anything at all. However, the goal was to essentially master these 4 and have them so ingrained that they gradually become a part of the way you play. Over time, you develop new ways to play them, change some of the notes, readjust the phrasing, or generally transform them into something else entirely.
This is essentially the path I followed. I took a couple Pat Martino licks that I thought sounded cool, practiced them for a good long time on various string groups and various keys until finally (and I'm proud to say) that I don't have to think about them anymore. They've become part of the identity of my vocabulary. In addition to that, it can also be a great help to figure out what makes these licks sound interesting to you and analyze them so you can write your own.
The most important aspect of this is finding your own voice on the instrument; something that makes people recognize that it's you when they hear it.
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Great question Kojo,i would recommend reading connecting chords with linear harmony.In that book the author talks about how he and his students analyzed many licks and came to the conclusion that most licks are based on or are variations of just three basic types of skeletol frameworks.This is backed up with plenty of examples from the greats.I once heard a comedian talk about something similar,he said there were only half a dozen or so types of jokes that all jokes were based around.If you are already familiar with the book then accept my apologies.
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I agree with gingerjazz about Bert Ligon's book and its emphasis on three outlines. The first is 3-2-1-7. (If you're playing over a Bb7, that would be D, C, Bb, and Ab, in that order.) Playing the outlines over standard changes is a great way to get the changes engrained in your ears AND in your fingers!
There are collections of licks: Wolf Marshall's 101 Must-Know Jazz Licks. Frank Vignola has a lesson at True Fire called "50 Jazz Licks You Must Know." (I haven't seen it, but everything I have by Frank is first-rate.) Les Wise put out the "Bebop Bible," a wealth of licks and the contexts in which they are useful. Collections of ii-V and ii-V-I licks are plentiful (and some are dirt cheap!). But it's better to have a dozen licks you know inside out and can vary than 150 you get wrong half the time!
I never heard of anyone counting the number of licks learned.
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O, another thing. This is really cool, but only if you like swing-era jazz. In his book "Making Music," trumpet player Willie Thomas says that he learned a lot from pianist Wynton Kelly. One thing he learned was that you can "chain pentatonic pairs" and create nice riffs and lines. The basic set is 5-6-1-2. You'll notice there's no third or seventh there. A lot of swing-era riff tunes were made of these notes. (The head of "I Got Rhythm" is built from these pairs.)
I like to use them when doing "Freddie Freeloader": hit the chords (-which are really the tune) and fill the space with lines built from those pairs. If you swing them, they're golden.
Thomas has lots of ii-V and ii-V-I licks built from just those notes. (You can add to them later, but they're surprisingly rich.)
An advantage of working with pentatonic pairs is that it forces you to vary your rhythms, and that instantly makes you sound more jazzy!
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Originally Posted by chrisnewlin
This is just about an aha! moment for me! But it's 180 degrees away from the "amass a mountain" approach -- which has never made much sense to me (but I'm trying to understand.)
But then, since I don't consider myself a jazz player, I'm supposed to keep quiet and let the jazz players talk about the jazz. I've actually heard this.
Anyway, thanks again Chris - I love it.
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Originally Posted by gingerjazz
Originally Posted by markerhodes
BTW, I agree about Frank Vignola's stuff - I've seen his TrueFire stuff. I have a Mel Bay book he put together called "240 Jazz Licks" or something; there are 240 of them, and that's one thing that set me to wondering, how would a person go about learning all this? I have an "Encyclopedia" of licks by Sid Jacobs (a wonderful book, btw) - and I have "1001 Blues Licks" (for any instrument) - etc, etc.
So we have this way of looking at it (just learn a few), vs. "amass a mountain." Ha!
Originally Posted by markerhodes
I'll look for the book, Mark - thanks again.
kj
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I get a lot more out of working on licks than I do practicing scales. I have a book of Joe Pass licks that I just love. It's part of the series of books Corey Christiansen did in the style of a bunch of great players. The Joe Pass lines book is split up nicely by chord type and progressions. I go through them and check off the ones I want to work into my playing. Or when I feel like I need a good line over a specific chord, say m7b5 or minor ii v i progression.
I also agree that over time, you can take licks and make them your own by altering them here and there to your fancy. But that isn't happening overnight for me. I have a lot of licks straight from this book I need to get absorbed into my playing without thinking.Last edited by monkmiles; 07-09-2012 at 07:15 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kojo27
Mark -- I love Willie Thomas's videos on YT. He has involving the "pentatonic pairs" thing.
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If you want to develop some vocabulary I think you are better off transcribing players that really connect with you. I started transcribing Grant Green, Paul Desmond and Wes. I also took ideas from good piano players.
As some one has already touched on you don't need that much raw material to build and develop on. Try making your own variations of lines you learn and identify what makes those lines sound good so you can use the idea in different lines.
If you want some books of licks Ted Greene has some really good ones especially his "single note soloing vol two"
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Originally Posted by Rich Cochrane
But you're right, Rich - it's a weird sort of security, and it's vicarious practice - just like typing stuff at jazz forums. How many standards could I have practiced in the time it took to write these posts? "But I'm talking about it - so I must be it..." goes the rationalization. : )
kj
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WELL, SHOOT!!!
I swear -- I've been at this forum for 18 months, and 95% of the time, when "vocabulary" topics come up, it's about how we must know an awesomely huge and staggering number of licks -- and all these licks (the more the better) give us our "vocabulary" for improvising... and these train loads of "phrases" can somehow "meld" together, and they are responsible for building the "ear" for playing ... and on and on.
Where are y'all now? I'm just asking HOW you go about learning so many? Is it willy-nilly, or do you have a system, a method? And would anyone care to say, approximately, how many licks he/she knows? There's no debate hiding here, I promise! I'm lick-friendly for now - just trying to find out how it's done (I have no teacher....)
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Hi Kojo,hope the fog is clearing a bit for you.With regard to your question how many licks does someone know?.To me i suppose that is kinda like asking how many sentences does a person know.Once you know how to put words together in a meaningful way you could talk forever and probably never say the same thing more than once in exactly the same way.This is why i recommended Bert Ligons book,you will not regret it.
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I was thinking (-always a dangerous opening phrase) about books of hundreds or a thousand licks. Those books can be of great value to someone who only gets a dozen licks from them---and it may take a book of 100 for you to find the dozen that make you go, "o, heck yeah, that's what I've been looking for."
Another side of licks is that AUDIENCES like them. It's good to hear how a new (-or at least new to you) player echoes The Jazz Tradition. I don't know anyone who loves Wes (or Miles or Sonny Rollins) who holds it *against* a player for using some of their licks! Quite the opposite: we tend to appreciate them more.
Yet another value of licks is that you have something to measure them by. Are you making the lick *work*? If the lick was gold when Metheny, Scofield, or Diz played it, but sounds dead when you play it, well, the problem is not with note choice but dynamics, enthusiasm, swing, SOMEthing. So much of good jazz is HOW you play the notes. (I used to work--regular job--with a drummer and I played for him a couple times. He got all over me about my time and gave me some simple exercises to play. He always said, "When you learn how to PROJECT TIME, then the simplest things will sound great. UNTIL you learn to PROJECT TIME, nothing you play will sound great." One way to work on that is to play some licks until they sound great!
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Originally Posted by gingerjazz
Seems they're hiding, though.
Originally Posted by markerhodes
The best time-keepers I've encountered have always had in common that aura that suggested they could not stray from the beat if they tried. Django comes to mind. Buddy Rich. Bela Fleck.
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Originally Posted by Kojo27
Joe Pass licks are working really great for me, I study them time to time. When I play them or analyze them I have an awe for Joe. His licks help to put me in a jazz mood. They fall somewhere in the middle: not too obvious (boring) but not pure math - some artists are too "deep", their licks are rather scientific but not musical.
Many of the rhythm changes are riffs (move, groovin high, cotton tail, salt peanut etc) and the blues songs as well (tenor madness comes to my mind). One can quote those riffs as well.
Some songs are pure lick collections such as Donna Lee. Try to write half a dozen or so short licks out of that song, analyze then transpose them in the different keys of the song. When you improvise on Donna Lee play (mostly) those licks - but of course vary the rhythm, note length, pitches, start beat, sequence them, keep the start and end note and change the middle etc. It works great, sounds like you almost play the song but you don't really. Like painting Picasso with playing on a guitar.Last edited by lao ce; 07-10-2012 at 11:57 AM.
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1. one key group a day. a key group is bits that work over related chords, i.e., A minor licks also work over C major and D7. not equally effective in each chord type, but this is how i practice. all twelve keys every two weeks.
2. limit # of items. prioritize. 2 or 3 that i thoroughly practice without fail, and then a few more till i run out of time. thoroughly means many repetitions, all possible octaves, all practical fingerings. dr. shinichi suzuki (yes, that suzuki) said "knowledge is not skill. knowledge plus ten thousand times is skill."
3. finger for ease of execution. music is not gymnastics or diving--no points are given for level of difficulty. hard to groove if you are struggling. change notes if necessary, modify to suit your playing.
4. small chunks are more useful. one or two measures have most applicability. for longer things, break them into their constituent parts.
5. integrate. relate the starting note to what you know. i can always find a root or a 3rd without thinking about it. work out what leads in, and what it leads to. figure out how to string bits together. group with similar licks. look for the bits you know in other people's playing. plug the bits into tunes and patterns.
6. metronome is my best friend. almost never practice without it (biab and playalongs are fun and useful, too).
7. sing, hum, or subvocalize along.
charlie parker said that he could play all he knows in eight bars. really master a few things. stay focused. commit.
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Originally Posted by randalljazz
This is really cool. Good all-around advice, and some good tips on lick collecting. Thanks very much!
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Originally Posted by Kojo27
The point is to developed the ability to execute vocabulary or "ideas" over different chord changes. This helps give you many mental and physical skills needed for improvising. Only after this is realized would it be a priority to completely own a handful of pieces of vocabulary.
This approach may or may not work for you, but it certainly makes sense to me from a teaching perspective.
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Originally Posted by nosoyninja
You seem to be saying that Matt Warnock says that the purpose of studying others' licks - as an "intermediate form of study" - is to gain an understanding of how, or why, the notes that work over various changes sound good? Why they work?
If this is what you mean, it makes sense. It seems you're saying that learning the how and why for these things - certain notes will sound right over certain chords and/or chord changes - is the important thing at first. Perhaps memorizing a big load of licks is not important until we understand why this or that works, and why this other thing doesn't work.
But once this is understood, THEN its time to amass the licks (vocabulary).
If I've understood, I say again, it makes good sense. But aren't we right back to the question this thread began with -- how does a jazz player go about learning so many licks? *That* is the simple question I'm genuinely curious about. And what IS a "lot" of licks to have learned? Nobody seems to want to say... to my mother, twenty-five jazz phrases would seem an endless amount of "noise" - Ma doesn't like improvisation much : )
To me, 500 seems doable -- but how best to approach such a herculean endeavor? It seems that, over all the years, jazz players would have devised efficient ways of soaking them up... I could make up my own method(s), but since every player plays this way (a recent quote from a forum member; I don't agree, but *many* play this way - that I accept), there must be several good, workable approaches. Going at such a task willy-nilly seems downright foolhardy, given that life is short, etc.
My Frank Vignola book has 240 jazz licks, and it's here and I have my guitar -- I'm going to start memorizing. I understand why certain sounds work over certain chords, so now the most important thing is to start amassing. But how on earth do I do it?
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Hi all - I'm a long time lurker here, but I had to get my two cents in on this thread. Before I go on, let me just say this is a great forum.
Many years ago I was lucky enough to know a retired professional jazz guitarist. He grew up in the 1920's and 30's and he played pretty much like a hybrid of Django and Charlie C. No surprise there I guess. He was a superb musician. I got to jam with him many times, which is to say I played chords and he improvised. And he could improvise all night, and never sound boring or repetitive.
Because of the situation - which I won't go into - I didn't feel comfortable asking him for advice too much, and he really wasn't a teacher, although he did get me to comp the way he liked it. But he did have one saying that he liked to repeat and that was 'Learn a riff a day'. And clearly this was how he learned, because over time I became familiar with his riffs. and it seemed like he had a few hundred of them.
What was really amazing though was how effortlessly and seamlessly he would hook these riffs up. It was very much like he was fluent in another language and was talking in it about subjects he knew well.
This was how a lot of musicians learned to improvise in the old days, and I'm sure most of you already knew that. But if you didn't, you should know that it can be done, and done well.
What I'd like to know, if there are any historians around, is how the art of jazz improvisation went from learning riffs to the more academic methods that we now know and (sometimes) love.
Anyway, thanks for listening and good luck all!
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Originally Posted by Kojo27
In my humble opinion there are very very few licks out there (in the books!) what are really worth the money/time/effort to buy a book and find that couple of bars in those. Lets face it, people writing lick books are not geniuses. This is why I mentioned Pass, because his stuff is simply fantastic all over the place (again in my opinion). George Benson is also great if one is looking for bluesy, "gipsy" lines. GB rhythmically is much more interesting than JP, JP melodically is much more interesting than GB.
The best source to find Licks Worth Learning is to listen music and write down what you like. For example from Scofield I steal intervals. How can he create interest playing simply 2 notes and then a resolution with another 1 or 2 notes? Why and how does that work?
Some people learn licks by playing them over and over again until it goes into them so deep they don't even know it is theirs or not. That is a good way I guess. It depends on personal preferences.
When I "memorize" licks, I just learn the role of the notes and the usage of the lick. Lick "A" (for V7) starts from the root goes down to M7, b7, then up to 9, then 6 to 5th. Lick "B" (major7 or minor7) is a minor arpeggio starts on root, up to the 9th including with the 6, b7 in the middle. Lick "C" (V7 -> I) uses the altered scale on V7, starts on b9, up to M3 (through m3 or course), then descends on the scale notes (m3, b9, root, b7) to the 6th(!) and arrives to the 9th of the I chord.
In this way I don't have to transpose licks, and memorize fingerings, they work in every key. Usually I just give mental directions to myself when I play. Again, I don't really play licks, but when I do, I would say to myself something like this: altered scale on V7, start on b9 (go up, then down) and arrive on the 9th of the I (Lick "C"). Reinforce landing (walk around a bit and arrive on 9 again) and start the next lick on it (let's say chord went to ii7 so "9" is the root note now), play an ascending arp, slide up from 6th to 9th (Lick "B").
So I don't try to recall anything note by note, improvisation is not information bulimia. I just cannot imagine somebody is thinking like "book 101 jazz lick you must know, p23, ex. 44, transpose it to Ab Major, play... NOW. 4th finger 3rd string... That is not efficient during playing.
Originally Posted by Kojo27
"Serious" musicians look down on metal shredding, but I think there is a thing what can be called mental shredding.Last edited by lao ce; 07-12-2012 at 05:00 PM.
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Originally Posted by A_Train
One can see some of the old-style in New Orleans, where there are still brass bands and dixieland bands. Kids learn from elders, who show them how they learned.
Loved the story about the old man.
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I think to really know a lick, you have to be able to play it in a few different tunes. Just knowing a lick in the abstract sense or in the "hey, check out this lick I can play" doesn't mean squat. Sure I "know" licks like that, but I never play them for real, so I can't truly say I know them.
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