The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    That's my lame half cent approach anyway.
    David

    Thanks for the thoughts. You have given me a lot to chew on!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    I am wondering what, if any, "damage" there is in just memorizing transcribed Jazz Songs and playing them the same way every time instead of learning to improvise my own versions of the melody and solo.

    It's just that I have a burning passion to play the songs that I like, such as Grant Green's version of "I'll Remember April," and some of the Hal Leonard versions of songs such as Blusette, Misty, Satin Doll and How Insensitive.

    I can easily see myself being occupied for the next year learning and perfecting these other songs that I enjoy.

    I do practice learning the guitar, applying theory, using good phrasing, and other guitar studies/applications, but I wonder if I am not doing myself a disservice by not creating my own improvizations and my own comping style.

    One thing is for sure, my technical skills are growing with each song I tackle.

    Any comments?
    AlsoRan, the first and only thing really relevant to answer your question: What is your goal? Where would you like to be as a musician in three years? ten?

    Without sensitivity to that goal, any response may be missing the mark by making assumptions.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    AlsoRan, the first and only thing really relevant to answer your question: What is your goal? Where would you like to be as a musician in three years? ten?

    Without sensitivity to that goal, any response may be missing the mark by making assumptions.
    Yes, what is your goal?

    But reading this thread made me reflect on this myself. I think a question that is relevant is...

    Why is that your goal?

    Goals mentioned in this thread:

    1 - Leaning to improvise

    2 - Finding your own voice

    Worthy goals, but why are those your goals?

    And another question; Regarding your musical pursuits, what makes you the most happy?

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    AlsoRan, the first and only thing really relevant to answer your question: What is your goal? Where would you like to be as a musician in three years? ten?

    Without sensitivity to that goal, any response may be missing the mark by making assumptions.
    Another great point, Jake!

    In the past I was always a little obsessive about my hobbies. But now, I have learned to just enjoy things as they come. So with Jazz and me, we are kind of like a young couple who just enjoy each other and take it day by day. No real future plans other than to be together - if everything works out. And if they don't, we will have fond memories...

    With that in mind, I don't want to do things that could limit me to the point that it is painful to recover from.

    For intance, even though my pinky finger has been broken and does not work as well, I make sure I use it in my playing so it is developed and strong, should need it for a difficult passage.

    I see the advantages of primarily playing pre-written songs, and now the forum has pointed out some disadvantages that could limit me in other guitar pursuits, should I decide to pursue them. I will adjust my guitar playing choices accordingly and will contantly monitor my choices.

    Between you and me, the day I am play Grant Green and Pat Martino songs fluently will be quite a great day.

    Thanks.

  6. #30

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    That's what I assumed

    I figure: do what makes you happy. If right now you feel compelled to learn other people's solos just because you feel driven to, then please, do that.

    If you have a bunch of solos and arrangements memorized it will be a great resource for you if you ever want to get more seriously into improvisation in the future.

    I think a lot of us here are playing with others regularly or trying to get to a higher level of improvisation in a performance context. For people who fit that description, the copying has to stop at a certain point. For you, I say enjoy yourself!

  7. #31

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    Transcribing is a great tool for learning... what you make of the process is where it becomes interesting.

    I'm taking it for granted your goal process is figured out and will adjust as you move on... Obviously... your on a jazz guitar forum...

    I don't believe any damage is done from Memorize and Perform. Performance is a skill... as with all musicianship skills, needs to be developed.

    Generally the level of your improvisation is going to reflect the level of your skills. One of these skills is that improve ability to make since of something musically... with out all the information, not memorized, you need to make choices. Letting your creative imagination function.
    Unfortunately this doesn't happen naturally, it's not divine, magical etc... You really need to give that creative imagination something to work with and teach it how to work.
    So the structural elements... all the technical BS, including your transcriptions... all help. But that skill of actually improvising, the application of the concept of improvisation as compared to the learning and understanding of what the concept of improvisation is... takes time. The two are very different.
    Reg

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    That's what I assumed

    I figure: do what makes you happy. If right now you feel compelled to learn other people's solos just because you feel driven to, then please, do that.

    If you have a bunch of solos and arrangements memorized it will be a great resource for you if you ever want to get more seriously into improvisation in the future.

    I think a lot of us here are playing with others regularly or trying to get to a higher level of improvisation in a performance context. For people who fit that description, the copying has to stop at a certain point. For you, I say enjoy yourself!
    So that means I don't have to resign from Jazz Guitar Player's Club, right?

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Transcribing is a great tool for learning... what you make of the process is where it becomes interesting.

    I'm taking it for granted your goal process is figured out and will adjust as you move on... Obviously... your on a jazz guitar forum...

    I don't believe any damage is done from Memorize and Perform. Performance is a skill... as with all musicianship skills, needs to be developed.

    Generally the level of your improvisation is going to reflect the level of your skills. One of these skills is that improve ability to make since of something musically... with out all the information, not memorized, you need to make choices. Letting your creative imagination function.
    Unfortunately this doesn't happen naturally, it's not divine, magical etc... You really need to give that creative imagination something to work with and teach it how to work.
    So the structural elements... all the technical BS, including your transcriptions... all help. But that skill of actually improvising, the application of the concept of improvisation as compared to the learning and understanding of what the concept of improvisation is... takes time. The two are very different.
    Reg
    Thanks for your thoughts, as always, Reg. I can see, however, that in following my approach, I will relegated to the "junior Jazzer" group . But one day....

  10. #34

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    AlsoRan,

    It's all cool as long as you're enjoying playing (more often than not) and are leaning something. The longer you play, the more you'll change what you have to concentrate on. You can't learn everything at once so work on whatever keeps you happy and playing.

    So, you start out learning vocabulary. That can lead to understanding why a lick works over a set of changes then why it may work over a different set of changes. You are also stretching your technique by learning that vocabulary. You can also play some actual songs with other people, which will let you know what you need to work on to fit in even better but you'll be creating some foundation to build on.

    There is no one way to learn and more importantly there is no way to play jazz without putting time in. Put your energy into whatever keeps you playing and interested.
    Last edited by Gramps; 03-16-2012 at 12:39 PM.

  11. #35

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    Don't for a minute think that most early beboppers didn't do note for note copies of Charlie Christian or Bird solos as the foundation of their improv vocabulary. It is one of the most efficient, simple, and productive activities a jazz musician could spend their time on. It trains your ear, your technique, and your mind. Anyone know of a method that gives better results?

  12. #36

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    Traveling with a circus band, or a big band and playing next to the cats each night. That might work too.
    Who do you think Tatum transcribed? Who do you think George Shearing wrote the solos of?

  13. #37

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  14. #38

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    Well, to be fair, Tatum and Shearing were monsters.

    For us regular cats, a little transcription never hurts.

    All aspects of study help in some way. No amount of transcription will get you ready for your first night in front of an audience--and no amount of "deer in headlights" moments on stage will teach you what transcription can.

    Jazz is the total package.

  15. #39

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    Tatum and Shearing never played a jazz cliche? I think you should be able to find one or two.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Well, to be fair, Tatum and Shearing were monsters.

    For us regular cats, a little transcription never hurts.

    All aspects of study help in some way. No amount of transcription will get you ready for your first night in front of an audience--and no amount of "deer in headlights" moments on stage will teach you what transcription can.

    Jazz is the total package.





    (Just kidding, Mr. B!)
    Last edited by AlsoRan; 03-16-2012 at 05:41 PM. Reason: clarity

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Don't for a minute think that most early beboppers didn't do note for note copies of Charlie Christian or Bird solos as the foundation of their improv vocabulary. It is one of the most efficient, simple, and productive activities a jazz musician could spend their time on. It trains your ear, your technique, and your mind. Anyone know of a method that gives better results?

    Agreed but they were probably figuring out the functions of the vocab, rather than looking at the solo as a classical piece/étude to be played by rote.

    I think at a minimum one should learn the transcribed solo in a key that requires use of different string sets. That kind of forces you to at least identify the function of the notes making up the lines. Maybe it's just me, but if I only learn something in one key my brain tends to use the path of least resistance to construct the solo as a connect-the-dots rather than as language over chords.

    Full disclosure: I still suck at improv (but am really improving).

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Don't for a minute think that most early beboppers didn't do note for note copies of Charlie Christian or Bird solos as the foundation of their improv vocabulary. It is one of the most efficient, simple, and productive activities a jazz musician could spend their time on. It trains your ear, your technique, and your mind. Anyone know of a method that gives better results?
    Sure... becoming aware of the concepts of improve etc... and a well balanced practice schedule...as compared to trial and error methods of transcriptions or memorize and perform.
    The problems with letting transcribing becoming your source for ear training, technique and your mind,( for those of you who have one left). First of all it takes way to long... or worse.. wrong conceptions of what your playing, because the player your transcribing can imply without actually spelling everything out....( we usually transcribe great players). Most of the time you don't become aware of what your playing...
    You can develop bad technique... usually do. You tend to use whatever technique you have... right or wrong. Generally you miss much of what is implied as compared to what is played... so generally, while may be great for non specialized ear training... You miss much of what your learning to hear... your not aware of all the relationships...I can go on ... but don't want to give the idea that transcription isn't great... it is. I'm old, I grew up transcribing... made $ in collage making piano lead sheets... from transcribing skills and being able to put into context.
    But it's just one of the tools.
    When I was young... we transcribed all the time because that was one of the only sources to learn jazz and jazz concepts... it was like decoding strange hieroglyphs... no one was able to tell me... hey those notes weren't random chromatics, they're from use of modal interchange, a standard jazz practice. And explain the references...
    There are unlimited resources nowadays... not many excuses left...
    Reg
    CG... please don't take my comment wrong... I believe we're both old schoolers... it's different now. We're not going to bring young players back to our days...

  19. #43

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    Just for the record... I still transcribe all the time. Usually in the form of leadsheets, jazz arrangements etc... anything I don't already have.
    Reg

  20. #44

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    Big name like John Scofield did not transcribe too much.
    He like to analyse phrasing of the player.
    He do not copy anybody -he is just Great.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramps
    Tatum and Shearing never played a jazz cliche? I think you should be able to find one or two.
    OK, the post my comment was in response to was this one:

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Don't for a minute think that most early beboppers didn't do note for note copies of Charlie Christian or Bird solos as the foundation of their improv vocabulary.
    The implication that despite the feeling of magic, transcriptions, "note for note copies" were central, or at least very important, to their acquisition of the jazz idiom. It has been the contention of some that that is not necessarily true. Well maybe it is, maybe it isn't. There is a punch line in the comment about Tatum and Shearing, not about cliches, but about the way they visualized lines. But maybe the joke is something we don't all see.
    Anyway...

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Don't for a minute think that most early beboppers didn't do note for note copies of Charlie Christian or Bird solos as the foundation of their improv vocabulary. It is one of the most efficient, simple, and productive activities a jazz musician could spend their time on. It trains your ear, your technique, and your mind. Anyone know of a method that gives better results?

    One of the things that Howard Roberts, Joe Pass, Ron Eschete, Les Wise and Joe Diorio stressed over and over when I attended GIT was that the fastest, straightest path to becoming a jazz guitar player was through transcribing and learning the solos of great jazz musicians. It doesn't matter if it's a guitar, piano or horn player, what matters is that studying these things will reveal both the similarities and the differences in how great players approach the same goal.

    There is a great deal to be learned from understanding how two players from the same era like Lester Young and Ben Webster played Embraceable You and how two players from different eras like Benny Carter and Charles Parker played it.