The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Recently I posted something about teaching someone to write a song using the 12 bar blues. Thanks for the help and replies but look like things are not going to work the way we talked about. He wants nothing to do with theory. Anytime I started talking about the 12 bar blues and cord progression all he would say is well let me show you what I have written so far. He started playing something that sounded pretty good but then it was a series of frustrating questions.

    Q: Do you understand any of the theory behind what you are doing? A:No.
    Q: Do you know words or what the mood of your song will be? A:No
    Q: Do you know the modes? A:no
    Q: Do you know the major scale? A:no
    Q:When you write your song do you know the key signatures?A:No
    Q:Well lets Just stick with C for your first song since you wont have to Key signatures and stick to the Cmajor scale okay?A:well how can it sound good if I Do that?
    Q: Do you know how to read music? A: Not really

    This is frustrating as hell I got all this stuff together about basic simple theory to apply and anytime I bring it up he goes well lets just go with what I got. He is a talented guy and can do some great fingerpicking but he has no Idea what he is doing in the context of music. He seems like the kind of guy that has watched a great deal of youtube videos and podcast and learned how to form chords and progressions off that I don't know how to help the guy write a melody especially if he has no knowledge of modes scales and very little about keys. I am only suppose to help him for a bit and he has no interest in theory what do I do?
    Last edited by Conman; 08-18-2013 at 03:30 PM.

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  3. #2

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    My 2c. If what he played sounded pretty good, then it seems to me your questions to him are besides the point. I'm all for people knowing stuff, but the bottom line is that if he can make music that sounds good to him and you by his method then what in the world would he need modes or key signatures for? I gather you are his teacher? show him some chord grips that he might be able to use. If his tune has a C chord, show him some alternatives with more color (eg C (add9), Csus). Now if he told you "I want to play jazz in the local scene" obviously he needs to learn what you told him, and a lot more.

  4. #3

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    What I don't understand is what he wants from you. He seems to a) be coming up with things he likes on his own and b) lack any interest in theory. Have you asked him what he wants from you?

  5. #4

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    Right. How could anyone write a song without knowing theory or modes or scales or key signatures?

    Better to suck the love of music right out of the boy than to have someone writing music without knowing the key signature for Gb minor. Who cares if what he plays sounds good if he doesn't know the difference between D dorian and G mixolydian?

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    What I don't understand is what he wants from you. He seems to a) be coming up with things he likes on his own and b) lack any interest in theory. Have you asked him what he wants from you?
    I think he does not have a clue how a song is set up and wants me to structure and set it up. the thing that will be hard is setting up the melody and he wants words but doesn't have any idea what they will be eventhough he has already written the retention section

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk
    My 2c. If what he played sounded pretty good, then it seems to me your questions to him are besides the point. I'm all for people knowing stuff, but the bottom line is that if he can make music that sounds good to him and you by his method then what in the world would he need modes or key signatures for? I gather you are his teacher? show him some chord grips that he might be able to use. If his tune has a C chord, show him some alternatives with more color (eg C (add9), Csus). Now if he told you "I want to play jazz in the local scene" obviously he needs to learn what you told him, and a lot more.
    yeah what he has sounds good but how are we going to come up with a melody if he doest have any words or a clue about theory?

  8. #7

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    You're the teacher. If he wants to learn he will learn what you teach him, if not, that's fine too. The last thing you should ever do is let someone who is ignorant dictate to you how to teach.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarzen
    You're the teacher. If he wants to learn he will learn what you teach him, if not, that's fine too. The last thing you should ever do is let someone who is ignorant dictate to you how to teach.
    yeah when I walked out I thought I will just wipe my hands clean of the situation but I would like to find a way to help him especially since my instructor recommended me since I know a great deal of theory.

  10. #9

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    ????????

  11. #10

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    Interesting thread, Conny.

    At this point (and I am sorry, I did not read the other thread you referred to), I'd have to say that If he is paying you to be a teacher, or even if he is coming to you with a need, maybe you ought to try to fulfill it, even if you disagree with the musical direction he wants to take.


    If he needs a melody, have him sing or hum one and transcribe it for him and put it into sheet music.

    Of course, you need to figure out what you want to get out of it. Do you want to pass on knowledge? Do you just want to be of assistance? Do you want to get paid money?

    From what I can gather, I agree with pkirk, show the guy some more chords to add to his repertoire.

    But if the guy does not want to learn the nut and bolts (theory) of music, its his right in our society. Additionally, if you don't want to be a part of his musical journey since he is not following your lead, you have the right to bow out too.

    Best of luck that both of you can share a rewarding experience.

  12. #11

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    But...how can you write a melody if he doesn't know how to read music? Unless you play it and he learns it by ear.

  13. #12

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    I don't think Bob Marley knew any theory. I've read that neither Paul McCartney nor John Lennon could read music. I've read Django Reinhardt had no music education, just a great ear. I think his quote was, "I don't know music, but music knows me". I'd bet 95% of the worlds traditional folk music was written by people who don't know any theory and that's some of the best music ever. How many of the Motown doowop guys knew theory? I think they were mostly just kids who listened to a lot of music on records and church and just started coming up with stuff that sounded good. They've been singing songs in Africa and China and the Middle East for probably 100,000 years with no Western theory or standard notation, right?

    The kid just needs to hum a melody and tap a beat with his toe, he needs a chorus and some verses and he needs to come up with some words. It sounds like he's off to a great start. I don't see why he needs needs theory to write a song unless he's trying write an arrangement for an orchestra.

    .
    Last edited by teok; 08-18-2013 at 10:46 PM.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by edh
    But...how can you write a melody if he doesn't know how to read music? Unless you play it and he learns it by ear.
    edH,

    I have done as much for friends of mine.

    I have them play a song, I record it, and then I put it on blank sheet notation paper.

    They then take it with them to other people they play with and now they can read it and play it off that sheet.


    I record several takes and also make sure they have a copy of the recording so they won't forget some nice things they may have done.


    I did this for some very, very good church piano players who could not read music, but could play anything and transpose it to different keys - all by ear!!

    But every single one of these folks grew up going to church and started playing piano before age 10.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    Interesting thread, Conny.

    At this point (and I am sorry, I did not read the other thread you referred to), I'd have to say that If he is paying you to be a teacher, or even if he is coming to you with a need, maybe you ought to try to fulfill it, even if you disagree with the musical direction he wants to take.


    If he needs a melody, have him sing or hum one and transcribe it for him and put it into sheet music.

    Of course, you need to figure out what you want to get out of it. Do you want to pass on knowledge? Do you just want to be of assistance? Do you want to get paid money?

    From what I can gather, I agree with pkirk, show the guy some more chords to add to his repertoire.

    But if the guy does not want to learn the nut and bolts (theory) of music, its his right in our society. Additionally, if you don't want to be a part of his musical journey since he is not following your lead, you have the right to bow out too.

    Best of luck that both of you can share a rewarding experience.
    I am not getting paid. I am working with an instructor to get my hand back in shape who also instructs this kid I am talking about and asked If I would help him start to write a song. no money involved.
    Last edited by Conman; 08-19-2013 at 12:43 AM.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by teok
    I don't think Bob Marley knew any theory. I've read that neither Paul McCartney nor John Lennon could read music. I've read Django Reinhardt had no music education, just a great ear. I think his quote was, "I don't know music, but music knows me". I'd bet 95% of the worlds traditional folk music was written by people who don't know any theory and that's some of the best music ever. How many of the Motown doowop guys knew theory? I think they were mostly just kids who listened to a lot of music on records and church and just started coming up with stuff that sounded good. They've been singing songs in Africa and China and the Middle East for probably 100,000 years with no Western theory or standard notation, right?

    The kid just needs to hum a melody and tap a beat with his toe, he needs a chorus and some verses and he needs to come up with some words. It sounds like he's off to a great start. I don't see why he needs needs theory to write a song unless he's trying write an arrangement for an orchestra.
    I am very theory focused. he obviously is not. I just want to know if anyone has Ideas on how to help him.

  17. #16

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    If he's going to compose (let's not use the word "write" ) without theory, he needs to use his ear. The best way to help him do this is to record what he's composed so far. Then he listens to it, and decides himself where he thinks it's not right, or where he thinks it needs something else. Of course, you need to learn to play what he is, exactly, and perhaps write it out for yourself; you can annotate your part with tips from what he says.
    Then you should be able to offer hints as to what could be changed. Again you need to listen to his opinion: if he thinks something is not right with it, exactly what is it that's not right, in his view? Maybe there's a chord he can't find; or maybe some kind of rhythmic thing. Maybe he can't distinguish between verse and chorus?
    Obviously he doesn't know what he doesn't know! But your greater experience should know (by ear) what kind of additional or alternative chord might improve some point in the song he's dissatisifed with - if it seems to be a chord issue.
    Maybe you can point out a nice motif or change he's got, and suggest that as the basis for a chorus; try repeating it a few times - repetition improves things anyway, and can throw up ideas for small changes or improvements.

    If it's a melody he wants - especially if it's a song and not an instrumental - then he's going to have to hum or sing something. If he's too shy to do that in front of you, get him to do it at home on his own - either while strumming his chords, or listening to the recording he's made.
    Of course he needs some way of remembering any good ideas he gets, which is difficult if he can't write. But again, he can record (even if only on an iPhone). He can then bring that to you, and you can write his melody down - to help both of you. (The point here being to make sure you preserve the good ideas in some way: either by notating (for you) or recording (for both of you).)

    If he needs words, then he has to get some idea of what the song is about. When humming, he could just make up nonsense words for something to sing, to remember melodic phrases he comes up with (lots of pop/rock songwriters work that way).

    One thought is that good songwriters learn their craft by copying other people's songs. That's how all the pop/rock greats who knew no theory (from the Beatles on down) developed their art. You can't know how to structure a song until you've seen how other songs are structured: and you don't get that from theory books, you get it from actually playing songs - and playing (and ideally singing) them the whole way through, not just learning a few riffs or licks.
    So my question is: how many other people's songs can he play, the whole way through? Any at all? If none, it's no surprise he's having problems.

    If that's the case, the best suggestion (instead of or as well as helping with his own song) is to tell him to find a song he really likes, and study it, analytically. He may not have to actually learn to play it the whole way through, but he needs to listen, count beats and bars, hear where the verse becomes the chorus, listen out for interesting chord changes, melodic hooks, etc. And he should do this for 2 or 3 songs; and then as many more as he can find.
    It's quite OK to use tab or songbooks to help. Internet lyrics with chords too. Even if he can't read notation, notated songbooks are good because you can see the bars (vertical lines) which mark out the structure - net chord charts and tab tend not to do that.

    It's like learning to be a mechanic. You don't get given a whole load of engine parts and try to put them together any way you can (using only your common sense). You start with an engine and you take it apart, so you know from the start what each bit does and how it connects to the others. There has never been any great songwriter who has not taken dozens (even 100s) of songs apart - getting inside them - before writing good songs of their own. (And songbooks are like engineers' manuals. They work in tandem with getting your hands dirty with actual engines.)

    Once you study enough songs, you notice how the vast majority share very simple structural elements. Verses tend to have 8 or 16 bars; choruses and bridges too. Each section will have 4 lines, or maybe 2 or 8. Each line will have 4 bars.
    It might seem like these are stupidly mechanical limitations on the artist's creativity - - but they're just the reverse. (They were no limitation on Lennon/McCartney, Paul Simon, Dylan, Springsteen, name anyone.) You don't have a blank page when you start; you have a grid into which ideas can be slotted.
    Those formulas feel natural, that's the point, same as rhyming lines does. It feels odd when lyrics don't rhyme, and it feels equally odd when lines have irregular lengths, or the odd 2/4 bar. ("Odd" may not be wrong; deviations from the norm are an expressive choice. While classic jazz standards tend to be 32-bar AABA format, the Beatles started breaking that down, cutting bars or extending them, adding second bridges, etc. But even the most complex sounding rock tune still has an underlying structure, probably with "4-square" elements.)

    The point is still not to actually draw up a blank grid structure first. It's to absorb the formulas intuitively by constant repetition, playing other people's songs over and over. Not just any songs, but songs you really love. Stealing things you love is what builds your own personal style. (YOU may know this, but he needs to see it too.)
    Last edited by JonR; 08-19-2013 at 05:32 AM.

  18. #17

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    Starting with the obvious, people are different.

    There are people who move their fingers around until they find pleasing sounds.
    Others hear sounds internally and search out all the notes.
    Those that follow through end up with a composition.
    Neither approach inherently requires prerequisite info.
    This is great and should be encouraged.
    Like all creative endeavors, some are more successful than others but the process is part of a learning curve.

    I would suggest if you want to introduce conceptual info, do so in direct reference to the composition(s).
    Not everyone is ready to drop the excitement of their endeavors and start digesting theoretical building blocks.
    If you are willing, meet the student at their doorstep while keeping them aware of the possibility of a
    more comprehensive approach.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conman
    yeah when I walked out I thought I will just wipe my hands clean of the situation but I would like to find a way to help him especially since my instructor recommended me since I know a great deal of theory.
    Conman, You say you know a great deal of theory, and that you've been playing jazz for a while, but your posts seem more like they are written by someone who is just starting to play/learn jazz. I get it: often when first getting sucked into jazz people become overzealous about the formal/academic music language (I'll guess from some of your posts that you are a student of Jeff Sherman's at Belarmine?) before they come to realize that this is not the main point: it streamlines things for those interested in difficult music, but is irrelevant for most musicians, even really best (how much theory did Lightnin Hopkins know?). You might consider this event as a learning experience for yourself as well as your student. In any case, most pop music these days is written and communicated without sheet music, either by recording or by ear/sight. So this student is probably just doing what most of his peers do.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk
    Conman, You say you know a great deal of theory, and that you've been playing jazz for a while, but your posts seem more like they are written by someone who is just starting to play/learn jazz. I get it: often when first getting sucked into jazz people become overzealous about the formal/academic music language (I'll guess from some of your posts that you are a student of Jeff Sherman's at Belarmine?) before they come to realize that this is not the main point: it streamlines things for those interested in difficult music, but is irrelevant for most musicians, even really best (how much theory did Lightnin Hopkins know?). You might consider this event as a learning experience for yourself as well as your student. In any case, most pop music these days is written and communicated without sheet music, either by recording or by ear/sight. So this student is probably just doing what most of his peers do.
    First of all: I have been playing for while But back in last september I had a stroke leaving my left side immobilized. it wasn't till a month ago that I could start to use my hand again. My hand is still effected although it is getting better. In my absence I could not do a thing on the guitar so I piked up Mark Levine's Jazz theory book and read it and I read almost everything on this website and have taken online Jazz improve classes. So I guess you could say I am getting started again (a beginner) in techniqe because My hand is the way it is but I have a great deal of knowledge about theory.

    Well over the years (since the 90s) I have had several instructors but yes I took lessons from Jeff Sherman at bellarmine in 2011 till i graduated Currently I am working with a guitar player who had also suffered a stroke in the past and he is helping me get my hand back to together after that I may switch instructors as My instructor as advised.

  21. #20

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    Wow, man I'm sorry to hear that. Have a speedy recovery.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conman
    I am very theory focused. he obviously is not. I just want to know if anyone has Ideas on how to help him.
    It sounds like he needs the craft of songwriting, not so much theory. Basic song form, how to write a hook etc. You've gotten some good advice above. Since you're not getting paid for this you might tell him to get TrueFire's songwriting lesson. It walks right through the process in a non-technical way 1-2-3 Songwriting - Ravi - Guitar Lessons


    Good luck.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conman
    I am only suppose to help him for a bit and he has no interest in theory what do I do?
    I would give up. I just gave up with a friend of a friend. I very much think that (usually young) beginning song writers have the idea that every song is some kind of deep expression of what they are feeling in their soul and cannot connect whatever tiny bit of theory you teach them with what they are feeling and so reject it. They cannot write just a throwaway song. They are only going to write something when they are "inspired". I explained to the friend of a friend almost two years ago the importance of writing regularly. Just yesterday I heard that that's not going to happen because "songwriters these days only write 8 songs a year". Teaching good students is typically a thankless task, although musicians do seem to be more appreciative than folks in other fields. But trying to teach bad students is just masochism.

    But Bako's point is well taken. Sometimes guys who know little lock themselves in a room and come out four years later with Dark Side of the Moon or at least The Piper at the Gates of Dawn.
    Last edited by jster; 08-19-2013 at 06:55 PM.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk
    Wow, man I'm sorry to hear that. Have a speedy recovery.
    Thanks Its getting better I will have to adapt my play style a little to compensate for my deficiency. Its frustrating because the mind is there but the body (or left hand) is not. However I still can play some (my main problem is moving up and down the neck with speed and using my pinky and ring finger. Chords are extra hard because of my fingers but I can play lead. recently I learned moon dance in open position.

  25. #24

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    Always great to see a person overcome obstacles and maximize what they do have.

    Django would be proud.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    Always great to see a person overcome obstacles and maximize what they do have.

    Django would be proud.
    lol thanks.