Shell voicings - Already confused

**J.C.** · 02-17-2024, 01:34 AM

New jazz learner here, but not new to guitar. I am hoping someone can clarify something for me before I get started on the wrong foot. I am looking at some shell voicing charts to learn some chords just to get started. The chart shows x313xx is a Cm7. Next it shows that same chord shape moved up 2 frets to x535xx and labels it D half dim.
Now, in the world of guitar that I came from, if you have a moveable chord shape called Cm7 and you move it up a whole step (2 frets) it should be called a Dm7, but this chart calls it a D half dim. What am I missing, or is this chart wrong?
Thanks for any help.

**pamosmusic** · 02-17-2024, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by J.C.

New jazz learner here, but not new to guitar. I am hoping someone can clarify something for me before I get started on the wrong foot. I am looking at some shell voicing charts to learn some chords just to get started. The chart shows x313xx is a Cm7. Next it shows that same chord shape moved up 2 frets to x535xx and labels it D half dim.
Now, in the world of guitar that I came from, if you have a moveable chord shape called Cm7 and you move it up a whole step (2 frets) it should be called a Dm7, but this chart calls it a D half dim. What am I missing, or is this chart wrong?
Thanks for any help.

Its not wrong; it’s just not clear.

Shell voicings generally refer to chords with the root, third, and seventh of a chord. Meaning there’s no fifth.

a minor 7 chord is 1 b3 5 b7
a half dim chord is 1 b3 b5 b7

so if you drop the fifth from those two chords, there’s no difference.

**J.C.** · 02-17-2024, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

Its not wrong; it’s just not clear.

Shell voicings generally refer to chords with the root, third, and seventh of a chord. Meaning there’s no fifth.

a minor 7 chord is 1 b3 5 b7
a half dim chord is 1 b3 b5 b7

so if you drop the fifth from those two chords, there’s no difference.

Thank you! That makes perfect sense. So does that mean you could call it either one, or is one way or the other preferred?

**JazzPadd** · 02-17-2024, 02:39 AM

One could also omit the root, and play 3rds and 7ths only. It may be useful to pick a tune and run through the changes with 3+7 shells. That may lead to noticing how they work. Each movable shape can have more than one name depending on the context, and shapes may vary from 4ths to tritones to 5ths.

**Boss Man Zwiebelsohn** · 02-17-2024, 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by J.C.

Thank you! That makes perfect sense. So does that mean you could call it either one, or is one way or the other preferred?

No, it means by leaving out the fifth you can use the same grip on the guitar regardless if the fifth notated (which probably means it plays a role in the composition respectively the arrangement) is natural or altered.

**J.C.** · 02-17-2024, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by JazzPadd

One could also omit the root, and play 3rds and 7ths only. It may be useful to pick a tune and run through the changes with 3+7 shells. That may lead to noticing how they work. Each movable shape can have more than one name depending on the context, and shapes may vary from 4ths to tritones to 5ths.

That's a great tip, especially for a beginner. Thanks!

**rpjazzguitar** · 02-17-2024, 03:51 AM

The broader point is that there's value to knowing the notes in the chords you use. It's possible to play great without knowing all that theory, but it certainly can be helpful.

So Cm7 played C Eb Bb is a Cm7 without a fifth. Vibrating strings have overtones. The C note will also include a faint G (you probably can hear it if you listen closely).

So, that chord is going to tend to be heard as a Cm7

If you move that up two frets you get D F C. The overtone of the D is an A, which can make the chord sound like Dm7, not Dm7b5. To get the Dm7b5 sound, somebody is going to have to play an Ab. That Ab will be a lot louder than the overtone of A, so the listener hears Dm7b5.

My choice for a shell for Dm7b5 to G7 might be x565xx which is D Ab C to 3x34xx G F B.

That omits the b3 from the Dm7b5. Some might not like that because it breaks the pattern of thirds and sevenths. Sounds good to me, but every player makes his own decision.

**Boss Man Zwiebelsohn** · 02-17-2024, 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

The broader point is that there's value to knowing the notes in the chords you use. It's possible to play great without knowing all that theory, but it certainly can be helpful.

So Cm7 played C Eb Bb is a Cm7 without a fifth. Vibrating strings have overtones. The C note will also include a faint G (you probably can hear it if you listen closely).

So, that chord is going to tend to be heard as a Cm7

If you move that up two frets you get D F C. The overtone of the D is an A, which can make the chord sound like Dm7, not Dm7b5. To get the Dm7b5 sound, somebody is going to have to play an Ab. That Ab will be a lot louder than the overtone of A, so the listener hears Dm7b5.

My choice for a shell for Dm7b5 to G7 might be x565xx which is D Ab C to 3x34xx G F B.

That omits the b3 from the Dm7b5. Some might not like that because it breaks the pattern of thirds and sevenths. Sounds good to me, but every player makes his own decision.

We guitarists live in an equally tempered world so that overtone G is not the same as a fretted G.

**J.C.** · 02-17-2024, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

The broader point is that there's value to knowing the notes in the chords you use. It's possible to play great without knowing all that theory, but it certainly can be helpful.

So Cm7 played C Eb Bb is a Cm7 without a fifth. Vibrating strings have overtones. The C note will also include a faint G (you probably can hear it if you listen closely).

So, that chord is going to tend to be heard as a Cm7

If you move that up two frets you get D F C. The overtone of the D is an A, which can make the chord sound like Dm7, not Dm7b5. To get the Dm7b5 sound, somebody is going to have to play an Ab. That Ab will be a lot louder than the overtone of A, so the listener hears Dm7b5.

My choice for a shell for Dm7b5 to G7 might be x565xx which is D Ab C to 3x34xx G F B.

That omits the b3 from the Dm7b5. Some might not like that because it breaks the pattern of thirds and sevenths. Sounds good to me, but every player makes his own decision.

What a great point! That's a great example of thinking outside the box. I appreciate it.

**Christian Miller** · 02-17-2024, 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by Bop Head

We guitarists live in an equally tempered world so that overtone G is not the same as a fretted G.

It’s not far off. Fifths are quite well tuned in ET - jaut two cents. It’s the thirds that are quite off.

One reason why power chords work so well.

(Also guitar is quite out of tune from ET.)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**pamosmusic** · 02-17-2024, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by J.C.

Thank you! That makes perfect sense. So does that mean you could call it either one, or is one way or the other preferred?

Either one. It’s just the context.

Jazz involves lots of fairly complex chords and guitar can’t usually voice all the notes at once. So we end up generally playing smaller shapes that can still make the sounds we want.

A simple example: C major 7 … C E G and B …. A minor 7 … A C E G.

So a person could use C E G to play either one. It’s not better to call those three notes one or the other. It just depends how you want to use it and what’s going on at the time.

So this is a long-winded way of saying that your shell voicing is just as much minor 7 as it is half diminished and it’s good to get accustomed to the way small shapes can have different names depending on how you’re using them.

**pamosmusic** · 02-17-2024, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

The broader point is that there's value to knowing the notes in the chords you use. It's possible to play great without knowing all that theory, but it certainly can be helpful.

So Cm7 played C Eb Bb is a Cm7 without a fifth. Vibrating strings have overtones. The C note will also include a faint G (you probably can hear it if you listen closely).

So, that chord is going to tend to be heard as a Cm7

If you move that up two frets you get D F C. The overtone of the D is an A, which can make the chord sound like Dm7, not Dm7b5. To get the Dm7b5 sound, somebody is going to have to play an Ab. That Ab will be a lot louder than the overtone of A, so the listener hears Dm7b5.

My choice for a shell for Dm7b5 to G7 might be x565xx which is D Ab C to 3x34xx G F B.

That omits the b3 from the Dm7b5. Some might not like that because it breaks the pattern of thirds and sevenths. Sounds good to me, but every player makes his own decision.

Part of the value of consistency with the thirds and sevenths is the voice leading. So it’s not necessarily that it breaks the pattern, but rather that the root third and seventh is such a beautiful and simple representation of the way the chord progression sounds. Bass motion guide tones bass motion guide tones bass motion guide tones.

**rpjazzguitar** · 02-17-2024, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

Either one. It’s just the context.

Jazz involves lots of fairly complex chords and guitar can’t usually voice all the notes at once. So we end up generally playing smaller shapes that can still make the sounds we want.

A simple example: C major 7 … C E G and B …. A minor 7 … A C E G.

So a person could use C E G to play either one. It’s not better to call those three notes one or the other. It just depends how you want to use it and what’s going on at the time.

So this is a long-winded way of saying that your shell voicing is just as much minor 7 as it is half diminished and it’s good to get accustomed to the way small shapes can have different names depending on how you’re using them.

In practice it also depends on whether there's a bassist playing some roots.

If the bassist has the C, then the guitarist can play E G B (an Em triad) and the listener will hear Cmaj7. If the bassist plays an A, then the guitarist can play C E G (Cmajor triad) and the listener will hear Am7.

If there's no bassist then the guitarist has to make a choice. If he wants to hear the roots (which give a strong indication of the identity and function of the chord) then he's going to have to play them. If he chooses not to play a root at some point, the chord may be heard differently. It's then what you prefer.

My preference is to make the b5 explicit in a chord that's supposed to be a m7b5. So, for Dm7b5, if the bassist has the D, then the guitarist can play F Ab C (an Fm triad) and the listener hears Dm7b5. If the guitarist wants to play fewer notes than that (and the bassist has the D) he has to omit the b3, the b5 or the b7 -- each of which is important to the sound of the chord. Again, it's what you prefer.

**ragman1** · 02-17-2024, 03:44 PM

I'd add that until you know exactly what you're doing it may be simpler to use the root version (Dm7 - DFC at the 5th fret or DCF at the 10th fret) than inversions. It can get rather complicated!

**J.C.** · 02-17-2024, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

I'd add that until you know exactly what you're doing it may be simpler to use the root version (Dm7 - DFC at the 5th fret or DCF at the 10th fret) than inversions. It can get rather complicated!

I am in total agreement with you on this. Thank you all for the feedback.

**AllanAllen** · 02-17-2024, 04:22 PM

I’m with Ragman. You’ll be learning chords the rest of your life. Don’t try and rush to learn 100 grips before you can effectively use 5.

**rpjazzguitar** · 02-17-2024, 07:09 PM

Since you can't learn it all at once, if you decide to focus on shells, then you're typically playing R 3 and 7 (per one common definition of "shell voicing"). Standard advice seems to be to play m7 and m7b5 the same way, that is, without the 5th. Some standard advice suggests playing 1 3 6 instead of major seventh. Then you may hear about leaving the root for the bassist and adding extensions. I don't know when it stops being "shells". So every time you play a shell, it's worth thinking "A shell of what?"