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I'm looking for resources for learning "jazz-informed" comping under an established melody, played by a different instrument.
Here's the situation:
- I have a specific song, with a specific melody (played by alto saxophone), a bass line for bass guitar and some basic guitar chords
- I'd like to make an interesting "jazzy" sounding guitar accompaniament, that fits with the existing melody and bassline, yet doesn't sound plain and has some "spice" to it;
- I am able to play the chords with various enharmonic (EDIT: I meant diatonic) extensions to make it interesting, but after a while that sounds sort of plain
- I feel that any "spicy" chords that I am able to actually apply, I find more or less by chance;
- I tried applying some concepts from Fareed Haque's "Jazz Comping Survival Guide" (a Truefire course), like adding secondary dominants, tritone subs, ii-Vs, and they all sounds great on their own or just with the bassline, but as soon as I try to apply these concepts in full song context (I use Musescore for playback), more often than not, I keep clashing with the melody. So it's back to trial and error, and usually it turns out that I need to stick to the enhrmonic stuff to avoid clashes, and that gets me back to sounding plain.
I was very excited about the Truefire course, and I like it, but it turns out that real life application is much trickier than I'd thought. So I'm looking for resources that show how to apply somewhat "spicier" jazz comping ideas to actual melodies, rather than in an abstract way, playing just by myself.
Any suggestions would be great.Last edited by klapaucjusz1; 05-25-2023 at 04:22 AM.
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05-24-2023 10:31 AM
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I always like to talk concrete examples, so what's the tune? Some tunes that have a wide range between their highest and lowest notes have to be handled with care...
Generally, if you stay on the 4th and 3rd string and use the 2nd string for color, you can usually stay out of the way of the melody (and the bass)
Small chords are really where it's at. 4 notes is a LOT.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
The song is an instrumental original by my bandmate, I don't have a recording, the piece it's still in the making. The melody on the verse is quite dense and repetitive, a little less so on the chorus. I think part of the challenge is the density - there are few spaces where the melody is not playing, so there are a lot of places to clash.
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Can you at least post the chords? Adventurous is fun and all, but never at the expense of not accompanying well...that's what "comping" is short for, anyway.
A few close intervals and good voice leading might be just the spice you need...modern style tune?
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Go over to the Month of Rhythm Guitar thread and watch Webby's video. It sounds like you're making the same mistake I do where I try to throw everything and the kitchen sink into everything I play and it's a wreck.
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Sure, here are the chords (I posted the verse here a while back asking for help with harmonic analysis):
Verse:
Bm | G#mb5 | G | F# A#dim | x2
Chorus:
Bm7 |C#sus4 C#7 |F#m |F#m |
Bm7 |A C#7/G# |F#m |Esus4 E|
Yes, it's a modern tune, or at least more modern than traditional. That's the intention at least. It's not even really a jazz tune, I just want to jazz up my part a bit.
But anyway, my question was more general about learning resources - an online course or a video, where chords are actually applied to a melody. I'd like to see how it's done, what's the thinking process.
Fareed Haque, in his Jazz Comping Survival Guide course (i have both the major and minor edition), lays down some very simple sounding "principles" as he calls them, like:
- any chord can be a dominant
- any chord can be preceded by a secondary dominant
- any dominant can be preceded by a ii chord
etc.
And it all works beautifully in the examples he plays, but all of his comping examples are played without any actual melodies, so there is nothing to clash with. Hence my question about a course where real life comping, with a melody, is shown.
EDIT: I deleted the unnecessary "maj" in the chords, I meant just "major". In the first line it's actually G(maj7) and C#(7), but the sevenths are not played in the original simple guitar part written by the author of the piece.Last edited by klapaucjusz1; 05-25-2023 at 04:30 AM.
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Just to clarify - my goal is not to be able to improvise interesting comping on the spot, it's more of a composition/arrangement thing for me. I'd like to be able to write a jazzy sounding guitar part, pushing a little beyond the enharmonic (EDIT: I meant diatonic, sorry) chords.Last edited by klapaucjusz1; 05-25-2023 at 04:23 AM.
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Ok, so I played through the chords, and I'll be honest, I'm not hearing too strong of a "melodic suggestion."
So I tried to play them as close together as possible, and found this...I'm playing this in kind of a light R&B/funk style, since I don't know what the real tune is...
Bm(7) x x 7 7 7 x
G#m7b5 x x 6 7 7 x
G maj7 x x 5 7 7 x
F#maj x x 8 6 7 x
A#dim x x 5 6 5 x
Then, I think of what I can change up top (changing 2nd string note) Turns out I liked an E, F# or G on top of any of those...
So now I'm thinking, is that what the sax player is doing?
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As Jeff said, small chords are best (also safest). Three-note voicings (root, third, seventh) rarely clash with the melody (providing the chords and the melody are properly suited to each other, of course).
But it obviously helps greatly if you know the melody extremely well because then you can play with the colour notes on top of your basic voicings. Guessing at those is not a good idea.
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If you want to use spicy chords, start with the shell of the 3rd and 7th then add 1 or 2 color tones. There is a hierarchy for how spicy each extension is and you should learn them and establish a system for yourself. Usually you can / should add the 9th without it sounding out. Next spiciest is the 13th. Next spiciest is flat 9. Then the rest, sharp 9, flat 5, sharp 5. However this isn't set in stone because each chord has its own guidelines such as starting with a 3 and a 6 on a major chord and adding a 9. Or starting with a 3 and a 7 on a minor 7 and adding a 4. After that the thing to take into account for spice level is the interval between notes. Usually 2nds, either major or minor, will bump up the spice level while anything a 3rd or wider will sound consonant. This goes for the notes you play, and between you and the melody instrument or other instruments.
Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 05-24-2023 at 03:42 PM.
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You have an established and specific melody - you need to provide that.
You have chords... where did they come from? Were they handed to you, or did you transcribe them?
You are showing some chord types as "maj"; do you mean major (where you don't need to add "maj"), or do you mean it as in maj7 or maj6 or maj 9?
You mention extensions, stuff, and chords as enharmonic ... what are you talking about?
To find chords for a particular melody, you have to have the melody in hand.
If you have the chords already, first thing is to verify them before changing them.
I makes a difference whether a chord is minor or m7, major or maj7.
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Not enough info here for me to provide a useful response.
But, I'd say this, the melody is going to be played in a certain octave. And it has certain notes.
What you don't want to do is have, at the top of your chord, a note that's a half step away from the melody note. You might also reasonably avoid a note that's a step away. Worst if it's in the same octave, but you might also want to be careful about other octaves, depending on the harmony.
There are lots of other things to consider, but the foregoing presents a bad mistake you don't want to make.
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Originally Posted by pauln
About the "maj" - sorry, that was my mistake, I corrected it. I actually just meant major chord by that. It's actually Gmaj7 and F#7 respectively (at least that's my interpretation), but the original score does not use sevenths.
Enharmonic - I meant diatonic, sorry again.
Extensions - I meant 9s, 11s, 13s.
I do understand the difference between minor, m7, major or maj7, sorry for any confusion.Last edited by klapaucjusz1; 05-25-2023 at 05:29 AM.
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Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate it.
But I'm not really looking for advice on a specific piece of music or chord progression. I was asked to post the chords, so I did, but, my original question was more about resources (meaning online courses, books, videos etc.) where "spicy" comping ideas are applied to an actual melody. By "spicy" I mean more “advanced” than just diatonic chords with diatonic extensions.
Like I said, I'm doing Fareed Haque's course Jazz Comping Survival guide. He demonstrated the following concepts:
- adding secondary dominants
- applying tritone substitutions
- applying ii-Vs (as in adding a ii chord before any dominant chord, including before secondary dominants and tritone subs).
Applying these concepts leads to non-diatonic chords, which creates tension, but can easily clash with the melody.
Fareed demonstrates these concepts in the context of tunes (a jazz standard and a jazz-blues), but he only plays the chords over a bassline, with no melody, so there is nothing to clash with.
I tried applying these concepts under a melody, but as soon as I leave the diatonic harmony, I’m getting non-musical results (or way more spice than I bargained for).
Fareed talks about these concepts as comping devices, so I’d like to try to learn to apply them for comping. So I’m looking for resources which show in practice how to apply these concepts when accompanying a melody. In other words – I learned what a tritone sub is, now I’d like to learn when and how to use it.
So I’d appreciate any suggestions for an online course (like Truefire), a book or maybe youtube videos on this topic. It’s not like I can’t find anything myself on these topics, but I’m interested in recommendations based on your experience.
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I remember checking out Fareed's course some years ago. It is intended to put the student in the right course towards developing an improvised comping language. He covers very basic but effective elements.
There are considerations other than avoiding vertical clashes in jazz comping. The horizontal logic of comping such as going towards a target, or establishing a pattern (eg. chromatically descending bassline), or counter melody on top of the voicings etc. makes the transient clashes less relevant.
Jazz comping is a language. It takes years to accumulate vocabulary, harmonic devices, phrases, substitutions etc and experiment with them in order to develop a good aesthetic judgement as to how to use them well. You also need to internalize your vocabulary so that the execution has a nice groove to it, so to speak.
Unfortunately, the education sources are either gonna be beginners oriented and show basic drop-2, drop-3 voicings and some inversions (which you might already now) or they will be intended to be a part of a longer journey.
That said, if you want to have quick way to create more "advanced" sounds, you can consider these directions:
- Lush vertical voicings: It seems like you already started exploring extensions.
- Active horizontal ideas: You can start with playing two voicings per bar instead of one. Use Charleston or four to the bar. Move charleston on different beats. Chromatically slide from above or below. Try to find places to put the basic devices you learned in Fareed's course.
- Varied textures: Basslines, broken chords, fills, arpegios, contrary motion etc.
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Originally Posted by klapaucjusz1
I don't think you need lots of expensive books, courses, and all that. You know what the chords are. You know the diatonic extensions. The non-diatonic ones aren't a secret, they're all pretty simple and you can find them on any chord list. So choose the extensions/alterations that enhance the tune generally. Make it sound good.
That means time taken to try stuff out, experiment with sounds. Run it past the band. There's no magic solution, it's work!
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The below course hits on some of the questions that you've posed. (Incidentally, I don't see any mention of ensemble scenarios above - especially piano or no piano. That too impacts what you should or shouldn't do).
Have fun.
Jazz Comping Handbook - Ted Ludwig - Guitar Lessons - TrueFire
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Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
BTW, we play without a piano player, just sax, bass, drums and guitar.
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Also...just be sure you're not forcing too much jazz on something that isn't jazz...
It ould be really helpful if you could give us any idea as to the melody, or even the feel/tempo...
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Originally Posted by klapaucjusz1
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Well, the examples in Fareed's course were very useful in the sense that I got to hear and play actual comping examples, where these concepts were used. But if there is no melody, it's a kind of an "anything goes" situation, almost every concept "works". Ideally, I'd be interested in a course, where the teacher says:
- here's the melody
- here's the original progression
- here's how I apply this concept (e.g. a tritone sub) to create some variation,
- here's what I'm thinkig about while doing that, here are the mistakes and pitfalls to avoid
- and here's the end result
I realise it's a tall order, that's why I said "ideally". Still, it doesn't hurt to ask. After all I came across Fareed's course on this forum, and I do find it useful at my stage.
Also thanks for pointing out the problem with copyright, it didn't occur to me.
I realise that a lot of work is required on my part and a lot of trial and error, but I believe good instruction and demonstration can be extremely helpful.
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If there is a written melody and bass line played the same way each time then this is a different scenario than if there is a melody and bass part freely interpreted.
My first question in this situation starts with the rhythm, how does the guitar fit into what is already being played. Are you reinforcing something that is already there or adding a new element or a combination of the two. So awareness of rhythmic space already accounted for and spaces so far untouched. Likewise with note choices, same basic question, reinforcement or new element. Think this through without a guitar and see what you can imagine. If lacking for ideas ask for suggestions from the composer and your other band members.
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If by melody you mean “head” I don’t know how busy you want to be. The harmony should be clear since there is no piano, range wise you have to be careful about clashing, and rhythm wise you are playing the accompaniment’s role - second fiddle you might say. There are fills between melody phrases of course.
Why not listen to Ella and Joe Pass a little bit?
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I am in awe of the musicians who play shows.
A friend, who plays Broadway show road productions told me they give her a book, a CD and a ticket. I don't recall how far in advance. The day after she sees the show, she's the drummer. I went to one of her shows and it was about 2 1/2 hours of music, with starts and stops, time signature changes and just about everything else that could possibly throw you off. She's looking at her music stand the entire time. I didn't hear a single error. Amazing skill level.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
The Autumn of Solo Guitar 2024
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