A Month of Rhythm Guitar

[ragman1]

3.5 is quite high.

[mr. beaumont]

3.5 is quite high.

Indeed!

If you watch any of James Chirillo's videos on playing in this style (he's definitely one of the best) he mentions in one that he has his action at 1/4"!

3.5mm might be enough for me. Time will tell. I've already decided that this guitar is going to be for rhythm only from now on.

[ragman1]

Mine only reaches 3.5 when it's almost at the bridge!

[Webby]

It sounds better to fret it even if you're not playing it. I think that's probably common knowledge among rhythm players, but I needed to do it to prove it to myself.

And obviously, if you're really doing the one note thing at a fast tempo, you might not be playing the whole chords...too much shifting...

I also need to remember, sometimes fuller is not better. Smaller the group, bigger the chord...and 3 notes is "big."

I'll be doing a "talky" video later today about guitar setup and the difference in sound depending on how many strings you fret. I've raised my action to 3.5mm...I feel like a crazy person already, but I'm probably still 2mm shy of what some of these cats were using...

Funny Story:
When I started to experiment with serious rhythm guitar, first thing teenage-me did, was raising the action to Freddie Green territory. I've nowadays settled for a lower (but not too low) action, but I played my guitar like that for quite a while. Probably felt like I needed to proof something to myself. While that whole endeavour was mainly driven by youthful overconfidence it did teach me some things:

When you're action is high like that you'll inevitably start to ask yourself what notes really are important. So these reduced voicings started making sense on yet another level. While I don't jack up the action that high anymore that did leave an impression on me. I wasn't just trying to reproduce a certain style, I tried to get into that mindset of those old-school rhythm players.
I think these cats just tried to do every little thing they could to be heard over a big band. There's an attitude that goes with having to fight your instrument a little bit. I'm not saying a super high action is necessary to nail that style, but I think there's something about knowing what it feels like to fight for every little bit of extra volume.

I still never have my guitar on my monitor mix, as it will have a negative impact on my attack.

Paul

[mr. beaumont]

Funny Story:
When I started to experiment with serious rhythm guitar, first thing teenage-me did, was raising the action to Freddie Green territory. I've nowadays settled for a lower (but not too low) action, but I played my guitar like that for quite a while. Probably felt like I needed to proof something to myself. While that whole endeavour was mainly driven by youthful overconfidence it did teach me some things:

When you're action is high like that you'll inevitably start to ask yourself what notes really are important. So these reduced voicings started making sense on yet another level. While I don't jack up the action that high anymore that did leave an impression on me. I wasn't just trying to reproduce a certain style, I tried to get into that mindset of those old-school rhythm players.
I think these cats just tried to do every little thing they could to be heard over a big band. There's an attitude that goes with having to fight your instrument a little bit. I'm not saying a super high action is necessary to nail that style, but I think there's something about knowing what it feels like to fight for every little bit of extra volume.

I still never have my guitar on my monitor mix, as it will have a negative impact on my attack.

Paul

I suspected this-- that if I ended up going that high I'd probably eventually come down.

Interesting about not wanting yourself in the monitors, not as surprising, but more of as "that totally makes sense." When I've been doing these at home I've been trying to play the backing as loud as I think an actual band would be. It's waaaaay easier to play this style if you have to feel yourself as much as hear yourself. Which I think of course was the role originally.

I assume you are mic'd up for most shows?

Eventually, I'd like to see what of this style can be approximated on my electric archtop as well. Maybe that's a "coming soon" video.

[Webby]

Interesting about not wanting yourself in the monitors, not as surprising, but more of as "that totally makes sense." When I've been doing these at home I've been trying to play the backing as loud as I think an actual band would be. It's waaaaay easier to play this style if you have to feel yourself as much as hear yourself. Which I think of course was the role originally.

I assume you are mic'd up for most shows?

Totally depends on the venue!
I'll do everything I can to avoid amplification, but I'm lucky to say, that the whole band thinks like that. It also helps, that our Drummers kit looks like this:

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Sometimes it just won't work though, I always have a clip-mic with me for these events.

Paul

[ragman1]

Don't know if you're interested but my action is really low. That was always the action and it's NEVER buzzed, not once. I've always thought it was a lucky guitar. Lucky for me, anyway. I keep old strings on it so it doesn't twang (for jazz stuff here).

[mr. beaumont]

Don't know if you're interested but my action is really low. That was always the action and it's NEVER buzzed, not once. I've always thought it was a lucky guitar. Lucky for me, anyway. I keep old strings on it so it doesn't twang (for jazz stuff here).

For anything other than rhythm purposes, I like it low. Is that a D-18?

The higher action definitely increases volume, and effects the way the guitar sustains. These are important for rhythm guitar, I think...you want volume, but you don't want to have to hit the guitar TOO hard, as the sound will get splashy and the tone suffers. Gotta let the guitar do the work...I think. Again, I'm not an expert, these are just some early findings in this process.

[Webby]

For anything other than rhythm purposes, I like it low. Is that a D-18?

The higher action definitely increases volume, and effects the way the guitar sustains. These are important for rhythm guitar, I think...you want volume, but you don't want to have to hit the guitar TOO hard, as the sound will get splashy and the tone suffers. Gotta let the guitar do the work...I think. Again, I'm not an expert, these are just some early findings in this process.

I don't know if it was on his swingguitar blog, or on some thread over here, but Jonathan Stout explained pretty good, that there is a sweet spot. Higher Action will result in more Volume up to a certain point, after that the top will be choked by the downwards-pressure of the bridge.

Still: I think rasing the action to crazy-high can be a really interesting experiment to challenge your playing technique


Paul

[ragman1]

To be honest, I was never worried about volume. It's great plugged in. But I agree about rhythm playing. High is crisp and clear.

Is that a D-18?

I wish. No, it's a Sigma, made by Martin. My mummy bought it for me 50 years ago. It's lasted well :-)

[mr. beaumont]

To be honest, I was never worried about volume. It's great plugged in. But I agree about rhythm playing. High is crisp and clear.



I wish. No, it's a Sigma, made by Martin. My mummy bought it for me 50 years ago. It's lasted well :-)

Those old Sigmas were great guitars. Probably too good, that's why Martin seems to have abandoned the name/connection

Yeah, I'm putting together an outline for "talk abouts" for today's video.

This has been a fascinating process so far. Undoubtedly it will be more than a one month dive, there's just too much to investigate.

There's also some dissonance in what I'm hearing...I think I like the thinner pick (not too thin) but Chirillo, for one, says "go thick." Clearly there's both best practices and room for individuality in this style.

[Webby]

I wish. No, it's a Sigma, made by Martin. My mummy bought it for me 50 years ago. It's lasted well :-)

I love that you've had it for so long, and that it's got that personal connection to your mother. That guitar must have such an incredible amount of sentimental value!

[ragman1]

Those old Sigmas were great guitars. Probably too good, that's why Martin seems to have abandoned the name/connection.

I haven't kept up with that. Apparently they gave up the name in 2007. What the current Sigmas are like nowadays I've no idea. I think it's highly likely the early/original ones were beautifully made, as one might expect from Martin.

[rpjazzguitar]

My first guitar teacher, Sid Margolis, was a big band player from the 30s 40s and 50s. He played a 1939 L5 which had low action. He had one of the old Gibson amps that looked like an old timey radio cabinet and mentioned once that it had 10 tubes -- which, apparently, was a way that amp output power was characterized back then, rather than watts, among guitarists, at least.

Back then, there weren't many luthiers (I had no idea where to go for guitar repair, and I lived in NYC -- there must have been shops pros knew about, but I don't recall any discussion of it). Lowering action wasn't a thumbwheel on a tuneamatic -- it was surgery to the bridge. And, string choices were limited. When I started in the mid 60s I don't recall light gauge strings for sale, I don't recall string gauges mentioned on the packages. I do recall that my La Bella's were labeled medium and I have a hazy memory of "heavy", but Light came later, at least in my corner of Brooklyn.

I knew some young jazz guys (including Jack Wilkins and Carl Barry, who are still around and playing great, last I heard) but I don't recall much discussion about gear and nothing about changing string height. They must have considered it, but maybe it was just too difficult to accomplish, and the Gibson and D'angelicos they played were already set up okay. If you cut the slots deeper, or sanded the bottom of the bridge, what were you supposed to do if you didn't like the result?

My guess is that most of these guys did not try to imitate Freddie Green's setup, but were aware of his style and tried to approximate it with what they had. I never met anybody who was playing unamplified guitar in a band, even my teacher. I read about Steve Jordan and Freddie, but I don't recall meeting anybody who was trying to do that.

I never met anybody who was trying to play rhythm guitar only. They were all interested in soloing, meaning an amp and, presumably, lower action. By then, Freddie style was dated and there were modern comping innovations that they were all after.

And, for that matter, I routinely hear players using all kinds of instruments, setups, amps and outboard gear -- getting useful sounds on the same musical style. I think that was just as true back then.

As an aside, the only gear talk I can recall was that guys who had L5s wanted D'Angelicos. And, they liked the Ampeg Jet with a JBL speaker. Guild was respected, but nobody wanted one. Fender and Gretsch were sort of considered guitars for country music. The jazz guys didn't want them. I recall seeing Fender's color brochure with all the amps, and I recall thinking they were very expensive compared to the Ampegs, which might have been another reason Ampegs were popular.

[mr. beaumont]

Yes, I'm definitely after something that will not be particularly useful in today's music

It's really not something that can be accomplished on the same guitar you're going to play fleet electric lead solos...any guitar that does both would be a compromise on one.

I think there were very few "rhythm specialists." That's what makes it fun to me. I love specialization, seeing people who are really good at one thing. As a guy who has made his whole guitar playing life about being a "jack of all trades," It's neat to see a "master of one." It's like when you go into a restaurant and it has a very small menu...it's almost a guarantee it's gonna be excellent.

Another obsession of mine is playing brushes...

[AllanAllen]

Speaking of Rhythm Guitar....

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[mr. beaumont]

More musings on process. A me talking and playing mostly a Bb major. Why Bb major? Because jazz, man.

[Webby]

More musings on process. A me talking and playing mostly a Bb major. Why Bb major? Because jazz, man.

It's great to see your progress!
I also love that your enthusiasm about all your discovieries comes through in that video. I can really relate to that. I really think connecting all the dots in this playing style leads to one eye-opener after the other.

Concerning the thick vs. thin pick thing:

I've always been part of the thick pick camp (as advised on the Freddie Green website), but I gotta say, that I'm eager to try a thinner pick on one of my next gigs. You guys sound great with those!

To keep things going here:
Anyone of you got any opinions on dynamics? Especially in a Big Band context.

This is something I'm still not too sure about.
I feel like dynamics concern me a bit less, when playing rhythm. I mean, on a loud tutti passage there's no way I'm gonna be as loud as a screamin' horn section (although I will do my best to try so anyways).
But especially on quieter passages I don't want to soften my attack too much, as I want the pulse to be steady. That doesn't mean I won't match the volume at all, just that feel like it's okay that I'm poking my head out a little more.
What I like to do in these spots though, is switching to only playing one note, as I think playing only that one note at least "feels" a bit quiter, but I can still keep a strong attack.
I think that's what I hear on the old records aswell.

How do you guys handle those parts?

[pcjazz]

Anyone of you got any opinions on dynamics? Especially in a Big Band context.

This is something I'm still not too sure about.
I feel like dynamics concern me a bit less, when playing rhythm. I mean, on a loud tutti passage there's no way I'm gonna be as loud as a screamin' horn section (although I will do my best to try so anyways).
But especially on quieter passages I don't want to soften my attack too much, as I want the pulse to be steady. That doesn't mean I won't match the volume at all, just that feel like it's okay that I'm poking my head out a little more.
What I like to do in these spots though, is switching to only playing one note, as I think playing only that one note at least "feels" a bit quiter, but I can still keep a strong attack.
I think that's what I hear on the old records aswell.

How do you guys handle those parts?

Great question. Lots of older big band rhythm guitar charts have few if any dynamic markings — the arrangers understood the limited dynamic range of the acoustic instrument. I don’t expect to be heard during shout choruses (although the quarter note pulse should still be felt). One and two note chords are often the best choices behind solo passages, not only for reduced volume but also because they leave the soloist more room for improvisation while avoiding clashes. They also give the guitarist a bit more flexibility about where to pitch the accompaniment relative to the soloist’s range — playing behind the bari sax calls for different choices than playing behind the alto, for example. I do find that a medium pick offers more dynamic range than a heavy one on my acoustic archtops with medium to heavy strings, although heavier picks bring out the best on very lightly built guitars like Selmer Maccaferri styles with their lighter but higher tension strings.

i should add though that in my big bands some amplification is required due to modern drumheads, big cymbals and amplified bass. I try to keep it to a minimum but it is an unfortunate necessity; I use a high pass filter or bass cut on the amp to help avoid swamping the bass.

[mr. beaumont]

Thanks! It has been a lot of fun...I like stuff like this because it focuses on two of my favorite things--groove, and getting a good sound with your hands.

Re: thin picks... I was so surprised that the volume out front wasn't that different with a thinner pick...now the volume for me as a player is QUITE different...but less so if I get the guitar away from my chest and up at an angle.

Re: dynamics...I don't think I can answer this one until I can find myself a playing situation to test it out. I think the Freddie Green wisdom says "more people playing, smaller chords," so the one note would actually cut better in loud passages...not that cutting is really the goal...time to find the nearest community hack dance band!

I like the way fuller chords sound at quieter parts, but I'm biased...I'm a guitar player. I like the sound of the guitar.

By the way, this record is a rhythm guitar master class!!! (Ruby Braff's "Braff!")

[pcjazz]

More musings on process. A me talking and playing mostly a Bb major. Why Bb major? Because jazz, man.

Marty Grosz was using that .88 green Tortex last time I saw him, so you’re in good company.

[AllanAllen]

Thanks! It has been a lot of fun...I like stuff like this because it focuses on two of my favorite things--groove, and getting a good sound with your hands.

Re: thin picks... I was so surprised that the volume out front wasn't that different with a thinner pick...now the volume for me as a player is QUITE different...but less so if I get the guitar away from my chest and up at an angle.

Re: dynamics...I don't think I can answer this one until I can find myself a playing situation to test it out. I think the Freddie Green wisdom says "more people playing, smaller chords," so the one note would actually cut better in loud passages...not that cutting is really the goal...time to find the nearest community hack dance band!

I like the way fuller chords sound at quieter parts, but I'm biased...I'm a guitar player. I like the sound of the guitar.

By the way, this record is a rhythm guitar master class!!! (Ruby Braff's "Braff!")

Tinley Park community band already has a guitar player and they don’t want another. I already tried to get myself in, lol.

[mr. beaumont]

Tinley Park community band already has a guitar player and they don’t want another. I already tried to get myself in, lol.

Maybe that guitar player...has...an accident?

Sorry, it's the Chicago in me.

[Reg]

Nice thread... Thanks.

Yea... personally, always used heavy picks, and gigged with high action back in the 60's and 70's ....because of not being able to buy better guitars etc.

Picked up a Epiphone triumph regent from late 40's in 71 or 72 ?... that was as loud as a guitar could be LOL and still would never have been loud enough acoustically to perform in big band etc.. it had one of the old (shitty) floating pickups, later put on a Bartolini .... anyway my point is I don't really get the thing about performing in BB let alone any band with horns acoustically.... yea we use to sit up front next to tenor but I haven't done that in.... decades. Most musicians working in BB's players don't have time for rehearsals etc... and we need to be locked in and be able to communicate while performing... so years ago I moved in back with rhythm section. I played a club last night with one of the Big Bands I work with... and had to add an extra monitor up front for the saxes... they want to hear more.
Even with just a few horns... we need volume. All I ever get is... can you turn up. (and it's not because I'm that good LOL).

And then to try and use dynamics etc...

I use an AER Compact 60 and a powered small PA speaker if needed.. as an example, last weekend I worked indoors on evening gigs and on sunday afternoon performed outdoors with lots of people... both with horns... I needed the extra speaker LOL... last night as said... also needed extra speaker. Last night played a few tunes where I was in unison with sax,
Gibralter, Midnight Voyage...Song for Bilbao... and with sections on some old Oliver Nelson and Bob Curnow arrangements... all very different dynamics... just wouldn't have happened with out volume control. Also last night rhythm section was Trio... no piano, so I'm always between both parts... and on tunes like Mossmans's arrangement of Smoke Gets in Your Eyes with changes on the 8th notes and piano licks that need to be heard... yea acoustic or low volume wouldn't cut it.

I'll try and post some BS...of examples.

[Reg]

Wow... was checking out Jonathan Stouts fine playing above and another vid came up with guitarist using the old Epiphone triumph regent I use to use back in the 70's ( also fine playing)