Minor i vi ii V question

[princeplanet]

BTW, if F7 is a given, then so is F7b9 along with it's 4 diminished "relatives", which when considered along with the 4 dims based on F# gives us a total of 8 dim chords we might slip in there. Gosh, almost too many useful options for one measly chord (that we don't even really need in the first place?).

I may need to revisit good ol' F flamin' maj7 for some perspective ...

[Laurence Finston]

I didn't say functional harmony operates differently in jazz. There's a set of material unique to jazz is all.

I was responding to what you said about disagreeing with my statement that there was no such thing as jazz harmony. I don't know what you mean by a set of material. Would you care to explain?

[Bobby Timmons]

The altered harmony jazz uses is vastly different than popular music with the more lush chords and use of much more different scales to jazz it up. I'm not that well read in classical, but you tend to see similar things with the main tonality and chords, then embellishment with altered devices over that. I think a jazz musician is required to use more harmonic devices for melody and harmony than your average classical piece has. So I think it's perfectly valid to have a classification of jazz theory or jazz harmony.

[princeplanet]

I was responding to what you said about disagreeing with my statement that there was no such thing as jazz harmony. I don't know what you mean by a set of material. Would you care to explain?

I'm not J.S, but, Blues? Harmony drawn from blue notes in many situations are incorporated in Jazz Harmony (where's Reg when you need him?). These are just not found in the classical tradition. I'm not even sure how many examples there are of a IV7 in major keys in classical music, let alone melodies, voice leading etc created by blue notes or decorative chromaticism around said notes.

But there's more of course, as some of the good people of the forum will surely soon attest to....

[Laurence Finston]

I think a jazz musician is required to use more harmonic devices for melody and harmony than your average classical piece has.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think if you check the facts you will find that the opposite is true. If we're talking about classical music, I think we would need to more precise about what specific era. I would also recommend looking at some music from operetta. One place to start would be the public domain lead sheets of mine that I've plugged elsewhere. For all of the songs from opera and operetta I figured out the harmonies. For the popular songs where they weren't written in, I did that too. There was one Walter Donaldson song where I did this. Otherwise, I can't remember specifically. They're in the following directory, the PDF files with names starting "public_domain_" and are numbered 1 through 5: Songlist/public_domain at main * lfinston/Songlist * GitHub

[Bobby Timmons]

I don't know how to navigate that. Why don't you post a lead sheet or score to some classical that you think is a good example. I'm not trying to make it a contest, I think at the very least jazz has its own unique language of harmony used for the harmonies and melodies. There's overlap between classical and jazz and I doubt 1 genre is the placeholder for level of harmonic complexity, it probably depends on the tune.

[Laurence Finston]

I don't know how to navigate that. Why don't you post a lead sheet or score to some classical that you think is a good example. I'm not trying to make it a contest, I think at the very least jazz has its own unique language of harmony used for the harmonies and melodies. There's overlap between classical and jazz and I doubt 1 genre is the placeholder for level of harmonic complexity, it probably depends on the tune.

This is the table of contents: Songlist/pdcontents.pdf at main * lfinston/Songlist * GitHub

You can pick some you like. This one's nice: Songlist/polowtnz.pdf at main * lfinston/Songlist * GitHub

Here's a nice popular song with some tricky chord changes: Songlist/teafrtwo.pdf at main * lfinston/Songlist * GitHub

You won't find measures and measures with every chord full of alterations. I've already addressed that point above.

I'm not trying to make it a contest. I'm suggesting that if you check the facts, you will find that what I say is true. You will not find anything in American popular music that combines catchy melodies with harmonies as complex as the ones in the Three-Penny-Opera. You will find complex harmonies in music of Lennie Tristano, Dave Brubeck and others. However, "catchy" isn't really a term I associate with these musicians. You will find more complex harmonic structures in classical music if only because it modulates more. You will find it in Bach's music because it modulates a lot. Jerome Kern's songs often modulate whereas many songs in jazz, whether from popular songs or composed by jazz musicians, don't modulate at all.

Please note that I'm handing you the harmonizations for the songs from operetta and opera on a silver platter. There may be something like "The Classical Fakebook", but there are surely not a lot of them.

[Laurence Finston]

The Mahler songs are the most complex harmonically. They are almost certainly harmonically more complex than any American popular songs up until Bernstein. They're in here, numbers 3 - 5: Songlist/public_domain_2.pdf at main * lfinston/Songlist * GitHub

[Bobby Timmons]

I'm not trying to make it a contest, I think at the very least jazz has its own unique language of harmony used for the harmonies and melodies. There's overlap between classical and jazz and I doubt 1 genre is the placeholder for level of harmonic complexity, it probably depends on the tune.

I agree with you that in the totality of classical there is probably more advanced stuff, but jazz also has stuff that is more complex than plenty of classical tunes. It isn't a contest. Look at some Monk. That is more complex harmonically than some Chopin. Look at all those voicings and chords. While Chopin would be more advanced melodically.

It's similar stuff. Chopin has basic chords arpeggiated in the left hand. While the melody is pretty complex with the chromatics. Monk is playing more complex chords. Jazzers also play more advanced stuff when they perform the tune than the base lead sheet. Saying classical is more advanced than any popular music referring to jazz lead sheets isn't a valid point. Jazz has it's own language which is deserving of a classification of jazz theory or harmony.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, as someone who has been digging a lot into classical improvisation I would say the basic difference as I see it is classical harmony is much more connected to form and rhetoric. Jazz harmony is more colouristic.

the complexity features in different ways. When I’m improvising in an 18th or 19th century idiom I’m very aware of certain constraints. When I’m playing jazz I’m a lot freer.

that said they have more in common than I originally thought. Jazzers can learn a lot from classical harmony, and vice versa but they have been generations.

the idea of comparing them in some competition of sophistication is not something that interests me. You sometimes see snottiness from jazzers about classical harmony and vice versa but this always seems to be a position based on ignorance of the intricacies of either approach (not to mention 20th century classical approaches.)

I’m more interested in learning about different approaches to harmony. Music is hard to do well regardless of genre.

[Christian Miller]

The Mahler songs are the most complex harmonically. They are almost certainly harmonically more complex than any American popular songs up until Bernstein. They're in here, numbers 3 - 5: Songlist/public_domain_2.pdf at main * lfinston/Songlist * GitHub

Harmony of popular songs =/= jazz harmony

[Christian Miller]

BTW, if F7 is a given, then so is F7b9 along with it's 4 diminished "relatives", which when considered along with the 4 dims based on F# gives us a total of 8 dim chords we might slip in there. Gosh, almost too many useful options for one measly chord (that we don't even really need in the first place?).

I may need to revisit good ol' F flamin' maj7 for some perspective ...

I don’t like F7b9 in this context. Well, at least it doesn’t sound very ‘normal’, I’m sure you can do something with it. In general extensions follow the diatonic notes of the current key and this one breaks the alphabet rule if F# and is just a bit odd if Gb

Prefered extensions of F7 are #11 (B), 9 (G), 13 (D) or maybe #5 (C#) in approximate order of commonness

F Whole tone scale and F lydian dominant fit best as does of course the A minor blues scale. However the original scale of Mozart and so on is a minor scale with a raised 4. This

A B C D# E F G

Descending from a F7 chord tone and connecting usually to A harmonic or melodic minor on an E7.

which sounds idiomatic descending on that chord despite the aug 2 leap (another ‘rule’ that is bent in real music).

Here’s a good link on this chord family with classical and jazz examples btw
Examples with Augmented Sixth Chords

That said the family of related doms - Ab7, D7, B7 in A minor. all pop up and have their uses

[RunningBeagle]

I don’t like F7b9 in this context.

I agree. The flat 9 is not working like it is when you're going V of V to V (notes C to B, le to sol from perspective of the tonicized E7). You're going bII of V to V, and the b9 completely undermines the point of the chord. You have voice leading in the bass of F to E, then you're going to emphasize F#/Gb in the melody?

And yes I just sat down at the piano and tried to make it work, using my actual ears.

[princeplanet]

I agree. The flat 9 is not working like it is when you're going V of V to V (notes C to B, le to sol from perspective of the tonicized E7). You're going bII of V to V, and the b9 completely undermines the point of the chord. You have voice leading in the bass of F to E, then you're going to emphasize F#/Gb in the melody?

And yes I just sat down at the piano and tried to make it work, using my actual ears.

Admittedly I like a rootless F7b9 a little more. Would you at least agree that A dim7 sounds good? Surely that's been used?

[Christian Miller]

Admittedly I like a rootless F7b9 a little more. Would you at least agree that A dim7 sounds good? Surely that's been used?

A dim7 is kind of a different thing to my ears.

[Reg]

The problem with Prince's question is... most jazz is not just single chords...

Jazz has very different Performance Common Practice styles and techniques that are implied. Single chords usually become Chord Patterns, and those chord patterns can become single harmonic targets working within Functional Harmonic analysis.

The point is once one moves past Traditional Functional Vanilla harmony... or trying to force traditional harmonic analysis organization of notated music ...you begin to see as well as hear different relationships between harmony and melody.

Or if your stuck in your box... jazz also has Performance Common Practices implied that are not notated just like other styles of music. Musical characteristics, expanded ornamentation concepts and technical skills that apply to melodic, harmonic, rhythmic as well as Form usage when performing in a jazz style.

Which opens the door to expanding the simple Tonic, Subdom and Dom relationships. As well as how notes react to each other as well as chords and possible development of those relationships with Reference to different Tonal Targets.

It's really difficult to understand how one would play a tune the same way every time one performs it. Part of jazz performance is .... not playing tunes as composed compositions in the classical style etc...

The simple approach to expanding simple chord pattern applications such as the I VI II V, which when making analysis using Roman Numerals generally all large upper case RN's are used...

... is to use different types of relationships to a key or tonal target. Function with relationship to Tonal center or Tonal Target. Then use standard applications of expanding or subbing.

1) Functional subs.... (standard Maj/Min.functional diatonic harmony as well as expanding to use Modal concepts, like Borrowing or Relative and Parallel practice)

2) Chord Patterns... which create series of chords that have the same function... example could be, I VI II V can become a single harmonic reference. And you can use any chord within that chord pattern to be the tonal functioning reference. Or subdivide the chord pattern.

Ex. The I VI could be tonic function using standard Maj/Min functional or Modal functional concepts... Standard Diatonic functional relationships. And the II V can become a single functional Reference.

3) Modal Interchange

4) Tritone sub concepts... which can be expanded to just root with different harmony above

5) Melodic expansion using Blue Notes and melodic min.

-then start mixing and use of rhythmic organization to create Harmonic Rhythmic patterns which again expand the simple beginning Reference for relationships... like call and answer ... there are unlimited options.

One of the tunes called last night was... Don't be that way... we performed it in Eb, so the I VI II V or 1st two bars would or could have been... / Ebmaj7 C- / F- Bb7 / which became

/ Eb6/9 C7b13#9 / Eb-9 Bb7b13 / and the answer of / Eb13 Gb9 / (E9)F9 Bb7b13 / (the E9 is b9 of F7)

the 5th and 6th bar would be like 1st and 2nd bars and then some type of cool 7th and 8th bars to set up the return or repeat of "A" or different when going to "B".

Then I started to develop the changes... last night we went in a jazz blues direction... Gene Harris, Oscar Peterson or Monty like style. Was cool because a friend showed up with steel drum... blues licks on a steel drum are just too cool... (jazz blues licks).

[DonovanT]

.. actually 2 questions. When the progression is, say, Am, F(X), Bm7b5, E7b9 :

What do you think is most common for the F(X) chord in this progression?

What is your own preference? (include fave subs etc)

Any examples, or mention of tunes would be cool, cheers.

i hear most piano players play 6/9, last two bars of alone together in A- would be A-, F#-7b5, B-7b5, E7 Sub VI for III A-, C6, B-7b5, E7#9

[princeplanet]

i hear most piano players play 6/9, last two bars of alone together in A- would be A-, F#-7b5, B-7b5, E7 Sub VI for III A-, C6, B-7b5, E7#9

I'm surprised to read you find that common, so basically just 2 inversions of Am(7) before the Bm7b5? It just seems like the safest (ie, least adventurous) option.