+ and +7 chords and extensions, especially the 9?

[Average Joe]

So, help an amateur clear this up: is a +7 chord on a lead sheet always an augmented chord or is the + sometimes a shorthand for altered? I've tended to assume the latter, and therefore treat it as a b9 or #9 as I saw fit. A jamming mate pointed out to me that Aebersold for instance in his scale syllabus take +7 to be aug, taking a wholetone scale and therefore the natural 9.

My confusion is compounded by the fact that + often seem to mean the same as #: +11, +5, +9, etc.

[docsteve]

IMHO a + should mean a raised fifth, which is an altered sound. Other extensions should be specified, including the 7.

Unfortunately nobody agrees with me on the latter.


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[bako]

A chord symbol only tells us so much. The + symbol indicates augmented.
I write it C7+. Sad but true, the same chords have a variety of ways they are presented and we just have to deal with it.

The symbol itself indicates C E G# Bb.

C Whole Tone - C D E F# G# Bb

A similar chord is derived from these:

F melodic minor - C D E F G Ab Bb
F harmonic minor - C Db E F G Ab Bb
Ab harmonic major - C Db Eb Fb G Ab Bb
Db melodic minor - C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb

When derivative of these scales it is technically a C7b13 - C E Ab Bb.
This is but a cookbook of possibilities of additional notes available.

Context creates a starting reference. What melody notes occur along with the chord? What melody and chord tones appear before and after this chord? Essentially where have we been? // where are we going?
These are indicators for additional note choices beyond the chord symbol. The various note possibilities represent darker and brighter options.
But once the context is seen we still have a choice to go along with it or
diverge and there is no law saying that you have to make the same decision every time the 7+ song form moment comes around.
If you are dealing with this chord from a particular existing song, always good to check out recordings to puzzle out how others have addressed your question.

[maxsmith]

I’ve seen a lot of varied and weird symbols over the years, especially reading older handwritten charts for big band or shows. Probably the most surprising thing I’ve seen was while I lived in Germany. Playing old charts with a fest band now and then I would see something like:

|Bb6 / H0 / | F6 /// |

The H0 turned out to be B diminished. Some charts used circles around the 7 to indicate major seventh or “m” for minor and “M” for major - very hard to read at medium to brisk tempos. And the delta sign seems to have had its heyday for indicating generic major chords.

I’ve seen “+” used a lot of ways over the years:
A+7 seventh chord with a #5
A7+9 or A7(+9) seventh chord with a #9, and a natural 5
A-+7 or A-(+7) minor chord with a natural seventh
A+2 or A+9 major chord with an added second

Since “+” gets used for augmented, sharp, and add, and “-“ gets used for minor and flat, I just don’t use “+” and “-“. I think “b” and “#” are more clear and I used them and “aug”, “add” and “min” when I write chord symbols. For a while I used the delta or triangle sign for a generic major chord - seventh, sixth, six/nine, ninth - but now I specify “Maj7”, 6/9, “Maj9”, etc.

Standardization would be nice, then you could achieve an instantaneous and unambiguous connection between the visual symbol and the chord type, but instead we have to first look over the chart to see what dialect a particular arranger wants to use and shift gears from chart to chart.

This will never be fixed. Get used to it.

[maxsmith]

At some point, I was told that “The Art of Copying Music” by Clinton Roemer was the industry standard guide for preparing music for Hollywood film, TV and music studios. I have a hard copy at home and used it as a guide when most of my own lead sheets and arrangements were generated by pencil. You can find it used or on Scribd. Here is the page from the “Guitar” chapter where Roemer lays out his proposal for a standardized set of symbols along with versions that should be retired.



There is a companion book called “Standardized Chord Symbol Notation” co-written by Roemer that goes into more detail and has even more examples of “wrong” symbols - some of them kind of amusing. You can find the book on Scribd. I find their list to be sound and it would clear up a lot of chart reading confusion if universally adopted. Again, my understanding is this was the standard reference for pro music copyists in Los Angeles back in the studio heydey.

[Christian Miller]

So, help an amateur clear this up: is a +7 chord on a lead sheet always an augmented chord or is the + sometimes a shorthand for altered? I've tended to assume the latter, and therefore treat it as a b9 or #9 as I saw fit. A jamming mate pointed out to me that Aebersold for instance in his scale syllabus take +7 to be aug, taking a wholetone scale and therefore the natural 9.

My confusion is compounded by the fact that + often seem to mean the same as #: +11, +5, +9, etc.

Yes that's how I would understand it.

The Aebersold scale syllabus is of course.... sigh. Not getting into that lol.

Well I like whole tone scales'n'all, they are a lot of fun. I have a video on them.

In general, whole tone is like a 'stunt' scale; you pull it out (fnarr) when you want to do something a little outside; that's how Wes, Bud even Monk used it.

But it's good to know what the diatonic options are I think before reaching for the special sauce, because then you can play melodically and not sound like a bunch of scales. Can't have icing without the cake. Although tell that to my four year old.

Tasty icing anyway.

The actual origin of the augmented chord is the diatonic harmonic and melodic minor scales. Therefore, a V+7 in a major key (e.g. F+7 in Bb) is actually a chord from Bb minor - and you could play the minor blues over it; focus on the Db (the 3rd of the key). In fact if you look where it is often used it harmonises the b3 of the key - Db in the key of F7. A good example is Mood Indigo or Cherokee.

In fact it's a very old fashioned chord. I reach for augmented (particularly the augmented triad actually) when I want to get an old school jazz sound.

The whole tone scale is also an old fashioned sound - very 30's or 40's. It is also a great choice for a 7#11 chord - you hear Duke Ellington using it this way on the D7#11 (D7+11) in Take the A Train.

[Christian Miller]

At some point, I was told that “The Art of Copying Music” by Clinton Roemer was the industry standard guide for preparing music for Hollywood film, TV and music studios. I have a hard copy at home and used it as a guide when most of my own lead sheets and arrangements were generated by pencil. You can find it used or on Scribd. Here is the page from the “Guitar” chapter where Roemer lays out his proposal for a standardized set of symbols along with versions that should be retired.



There is a companion book called “Standardized Chord Symbol Notation” co-written by Roemer that goes into more detail and has even more examples of “wrong” symbols - some of them kind of amusing. You can find the book on Scribd. I find their list to be sound and it would clear up a lot of chart reading confusion if universally adopted. Again, my understanding is this was the standard reference for pro music copyists in Los Angeles back in the studio heydey.

Has this not been superseded?

I'd follow the Berklee style guide; that's the lingua franca (it's on their website).

But, I'd understand these symbols if they dropped in front of me. You will most DEFINITELY see these in big band parts.

[mr. beaumont]

Ugh, I don't like a lot of those. Berklee's take is fine...still too many choices. I like the delta and minus for major 7 and minor...cleanest reading, no extraneous letters.

[setemupjoe]

The + sign has been used incorrectly in the past as a variation on #, as in #11 or +11; #9 or +9.

This adds to confusion rather than clarification. + is the sign for an augmented 5th and should not be used for anything else.

Therefore +7 is always a dominant 7th chord with a raised 5th. No information about the 9th is given and should be decided by the accompanying melody or the placement of the chord within the tune to imply what function the chord should play. (e.g. III7 chords will almost always have altered 9ths but VI7 chords can go either way.)

[Christian Miller]

To be honest, you see all sorts of stuff if you look at enough charts

[maxsmith]

Has this not been superseded?

I'd follow the Berklee style guide; that's the lingua franca (it's on their website).

I’d love to see Berklee’s chord symbol guide. I tried searching but having trouble finding a chart or guide - do you know offhand where it is?

Thanks.

[ragman1]

Gosh, this could be quite complex. Decades ago signs and symbols weren't so clear cut as they are today. These days they're pretty standard. And I'd say that chart above was out of date now.

The + sign is very rarely, if at all, used as a substitute for 'sharp' by itself. So C+ is NOT a C# chord. It almost always means augmented, which in turn means an augmented/sharpened/raised 5th.

So C+ is a full augmented chord (C E G#) and C7+ means a dominant7 with a sharpened or raised 5th (C E G# Bb). i.e. C7#5. It can also appear as C7aug.

Similarly, the - sign isn't used to denote 'flat' by itself. So B- means B minor, never Bb maj. The - sign almost exclusively means minor. So C- is a C minor chord (C Eb G) and C-7 means Cm7 (C Eb G Bb).

7b9 chords are written C7b9 or C7-9.

7#9 chords are occasionally written C7+9 but usually as C7#9.

The + sign isn't generally used to indicate 'altered' but I've seen it done.

I'm qualifying a lot of these statements with 'almost' because it depends on the source. Some, especially old, lead sheets can be confusing but one just has to use one's common sense.

However, the same tune can appear with different chords on it. One source of confusion can be like this. In the tune 'A Child Is Born', for example, the Real Book has part of it like this:



We'd almost certainly decide to play that D+7 as D7#5 . But some other sheets (I've looked them up) have either D7#9, D7b9, and/or D7#5b9. So it depends on the version one's using.

At this point a lot of players would say check it out by listening to the original recording, or a recording one prefers. Which is all very well providing one has the ears to hear the differences!

So it can get tricky. For which I humbly apologise even though it's NOT MY FAULT!

[ragman1]

Incidentally, I see some posters are asking to get hold of, say, the current Berklee chart, or some other one. Good idea, but the danger there is that having the chart doesn't automatically guarantee that all lead sheets will correspond with it. One would still have to use one's sense in deciphering them.

But it would probably be a good enough guide in deciding what symbols to use oneself for something.

[ragman1]

+7 to be aug, taking a wholetone scale and therefore the natural 9

Sorry, I forgot this earlier.

That would be right. If you were using the WT scale then it would sound the nat 9. If the 9 were altered then it would say so... but it would be unlikely to look like 7+b9. It would be 7#5b9 or more simply 7alt.

That's what alt means, where there's more than one alteration. So you might see 7#5b9, 7b5b9, 7#5#9, and so on. Alternatively, alt means you can put in your own variation.

My confusion is compounded by the fact that + often seem to mean the same as #: +11, +5, +9, etc.

Don't be confused!

You might get +11 and +9 as opposed to #11 or #9. But, since + usually refers to the 5th anyway, you're unlikely to see +5 except in Continental sheets. Have a look at this site:

http://www.jazzbanjo.nl/files/Anthol...es-de-Jazz.pdf

This is pretty confusing if you're not ready for it. Here's the first tune:



There they have F5+ (they put the alterations last). That means it's an F augmented chord (F A Db). Then there's D9b, which is highly ambiguous, but I think it means D7b9. And then there's Db9 11+ which is Db9#11.

But you get used to it and the site can be useful especially for gypsy guitarists.

I think we should definitely avoid the feeling that we have to understand it straight off, or that's it's our fault if we don't get it rather than the fault of the sheet. If in any doubt check other lead sheets by googling or look at YouTube backing tracks and transcriptions. Don't automatically assume that it must be correct and you're a bit thick if you don't understand it. It may not be your fault at all.

[Christian Miller]

I’d love to see Berklee’s chord symbol guide. I tried searching but having trouble finding a chart or guide - do you know offhand where it is?

Thanks.

there’s a chart in this article
Why Lead Sheets? | Berklee

there’s also a book which I should probably get at some point

[alt]

When in doubt I analyse the melody. That aside in minor keys it's most probably a mixolydian b9 b13 - fifth mode of harmonic minor. Sometimes mixolydian b13 only - fifth mode of melodic minor.
In a major key it may be still those borrowed from paralel minor or just altered.

[Jonah]

I would think it is indication maj7...
augmented 7th chord would rather be 7+

[Christian Miller]

I would think it is indication maj7...
augmented 7th chord would rather be 7+

Nah that would be sensible

[rpjazzguitar]

I've seen "7+" to mean major seventh in some old Brazilian charts, meaning, done in Brazil.

[Christian Miller]

Brazilian charts could be their own thread haha