Autumn Leaves C Section harmony... confused.

[stylo]

Hi all, jazz beginner learning Autumn Leaves in G- as my first standard. I'm interested in understanding what's happening compositionally, in order to really grasp why it works, and why it sounds good. (Interested in songwriting myself)

The A and B sections are pretty straightforward: 251(4) of Bb (relative major), and 251 of G minor. I'm working on understanding the C section better. Here's the section in green:



So there's a couple ways I can see of reading this section:

1. i IV7 vii III7 -- Not very useful to me
2. vi II7 v I7 of relative major. This doesn't really make sense to me because you end up making minor chords major and vice versa.
3. i IV7, ii-V of relative IV (as written above) -- this is better but still isn't telling me a lot about how I'm hearing the chords resolve back to ii-V-I.
4. ii-V of F (relative V), ii-V of Eb (relative IV) -- this is what makes the most sense to me but I'm not sure how we end back up on the ii, how that resolution works.

I saw online this part was called a 'step-down progression.' I can hear that happening but I'm not really sure how it works. This gives me a couple of questions:

• How is this progression actually resolving to your ears? What's the easiest way to think of it.
• How do jazz standards use relative V and relative IV?
• How do we use "step down progressions"?

[T Monk]

I don't do that 2-5 nonsense on the green part, I just do a step down progression on G- (G-, G-maj7, G-7, G-6) to Eb6 instead of the A half dim. It's easier and sounds better.

[ragman1]

C Section

Ouch.

I'm interested in understanding what's happening compositionally

That's not the same as playing it.

in order to really grasp why it works

Why shouldn't it work? It's a very simple, straightforward tune, like a folk song, not like one of those modern modal things.

why it sounds good.

It sounds good because it's so simple.

It's just a major ii-V-I and its relative minor ii-V-i twice. It couldn't be more straightforward.

What's the easiest way to think of it.

It's just a connecting device between the Gm and the Am7b5 (which is often played as EbM7).

It also makes it more interesting to listen to. You could just as easily play Gm for two bars there, it makes no difference to the melody which is just one long D note.

The other way to do it (and probably more popular) is to play it chromatically:

Gm7/F#7 - Fm7/E7 - EbM7

You're over-thinking it, which is what usually happens when we start analysing simple things. Wait till you get something really impossible!

[pingu]

OK bear with me

first .....
sub a Eb6 for the Am7b5
after the green section
(flat5 sub)
x655xx

nice .....

how I see/hear the green section
is ‘one way’ to get from Gm to that Eb6

you don’t have to do that every time
its just ‘one way’ of doing it

people will use different chord movements
there , or none , as you’ve just read here

[ragman1]

If you really want to know why it 'sounds good', that's very simple too.

The ii-V-I cadence is the most pleasing to the ear, even more so than the IV-V-I. Similarly with it's relative minor ii-V-i. And that's all there is here.

Also, if you check the melody, you'll see that it consistently lands on the 3rd of each chord. The 3rd is the 'prettiest' note you can use.

Put the two together and you've got a sure-fire recipe for a really nice tune.

[ragman1]

Also, over the connecting device, you can see why that works too. The long D note of the melody corresponds legitimately with all those chords. Over the cycle of 4ths, adding the D each time, the chords become:

Gm7/C9 - Fm13/Bb7 - Am11

Over the chromatic version:

Gm7/F#7b13 - Fm13/E7 - EbM7

So it's all very clever.

[ragman1]

But the real point is: Can you play the damn thing! Otherwise what's the point?

[Tal_175]

4.ii-V of F (relative V), ii-V of Eb (relative IV) -- this is what makes the most sense to me but I'm not sure how we end back up on the ii, how that resolution works.

So you are asking how does Bb7 resolve to Amin7b5? Simple, Bb7 is just tritone of E7 which is a V of A min.

[Christian Miller]

Hi all, jazz beginner learning Autumn Leaves in G- as my first standard. I'm interested in understanding what's happening compositionally, in order to really grasp why it works, and why it sounds good. (Interested in songwriting myself)

The A and B sections are pretty straightforward: 251(4) of Bb (relative major), and 251 of G minor. I'm working on understanding the C section better. Here's the section in green:



So there's a couple ways I can see of reading this section:

1. i IV7 vii III7 -- Not very useful to me
2. vi II7 v I7 of relative major. This doesn't really make sense to me because you end up making minor chords major and vice versa.
3. i IV7, ii-V of relative IV (as written above) -- this is better but still isn't telling me a lot about how I'm hearing the chords resolve back to ii-V-I.
4. ii-V of F (relative V), ii-V of Eb (relative IV) -- this is what makes the most sense to me but I'm not sure how we end back up on the ii, how that resolution works.

I saw online this part was called a 'step-down progression.' I can hear that happening but I'm not really sure how it works. This gives me a couple of questions:

• How is this progression actually resolving to your ears? What's the easiest way to think of it.
• How do jazz standards use relative V and relative IV?
• How do we use "step down progressions"?

- it’s a sub for the original changes; the originals don’t have that bit in green IIRC. It’s just Gm
- if soloing over the sub I’d get rid of Bb7 (you can always play Fm minor over Bb7 anyway), then it’s a II v I in Gm dovetailed into a ii V I in Fm.

Oh yeah;
- Don’t play Gm7. The correct chord there is Gm6 or at a push Gm(maj7), a better sound for a tonic minor chord.

[Christian Miller]

I’ve also seen Gm7 F#m7 Fm7 Bb7 in that green section.

[ragman1]

The correct chord there is Gm6 or at a push Gm(maj7), a better sound for a tonic minor chord.

That might confuse him.

You probably mean that, in the original, it's two bars of Gm which can be subbed for Gm/Gm(maj7) - Gm7/Gm6... but that's a bit folky. The jazz version is nearly always the descending rundown. And he's looking at that himself in his version.

[ragman1]

The thing to remember in these simple progressions is that it's not a plot. If the chords were all over the place the music wouldn't work, it's as simple as that.

There's always a logic to it, either 2-5's, chromatic connecting chords, tritone subs, backdoor subs, or some other such thing. It's only in the modern modal pieces that the chords appear random. With these standards there aren't many which have odd progressions.

[Christian Miller]

That might confuse him.

You probably mean that, in the original, it's two bars of Gm which can be subbed for Gm/Gm(maj7) - Gm7/Gm6... but that's a bit folky. The jazz version is nearly always the descending rundown. And he's looking at that himself in his version.

i meant in the last couple of bars

[T Monk]

The thing to remember in these simple progressions is that it's not a plot. If the chords were all over the place the music

wouldn't work, it's as simple as that. There's always a logic to it, either 2-5's, chromatic connecting chords, tritone subs, backdoor subs, or some other such thing. It's only in the modern modal pieces that the chords appear random. With these standards there aren't many which have odd progressions.

Which is why I think a simple walk down on G- suits the sound of the tune better than jumping around with those 2-5s. It falls in with the summing up of the drama. Jumping around with 2-5s sounds terrible to me. Then using an Eb6 instead of an A half dim gives some nice variation for the final cadence. Finally, using G-6 as the minor 1 chord can be more effective in general because it signifies a 1 rather than a 2.

[ragman1]

i meant in the last couple of bars

You mean not in the green bit but the whole tune? Oh, you mean turn the Gm into a Gm6. Always nice. Mind you, if it's a t/a it usually goes to G7+ (- Cm). It's okay right at the end, of course.

[ragman1]

[FONT=&amp]Which is why I think a simple walk down on G- suits the sound of the tune better than jumping around with those 2-5s. It falls in with the summing up of the drama. Jumping around with 2-5s sounds terrible to me. Then using an Eb6 instead of an A half dim gives some nice variation for the final cadence. Finally, using G-6 as the minor 1 chord can be more effective in general because it signifies a 1 rather than a 2.

You mean using the Gm/Gm(maj7) - Gm7/Gm6 idea in the green bit? It works, I thought of it too, but for that jazzy touch I think I prefer the chromatic thing.

And, as I said to Christian, a m6 is nice over the final two bars. The old ones are best :-)

[Christian Miller]

You mean not in the green bit but the whole tune? Oh, you mean turn the Gm into a Gm6. Always nice. Mind you, if it's a t/a it usually goes to G7+ (- Cm). It's okay right at the end, of course.

Yeah don’t play Gm7 in Autumn Leaves as the default I chord. A straight Gm would be a better choice, but any minor type chord with a natural (major) 6 and/or seventh is good. Gm6 is the obvious choice.

it’s fine as a passing chord in the green bit.

I mean I’m sure it’s fine if Wes or someone does it but a beginner should understand the difference between a m7 and a real minor chord.

[RunningBeagle]

It is a III-VI-II-V in Eb. People actually do play this so I wouldn't be too dismissive of it. Whoever said the last A-7b5 should be Ebmaj7 is right. They are closely related chords so not a big deal.

[T Monk]

You mean using the Gm/Gm(maj7) - Gm7/Gm6 idea in the green bit? It works, I thought of it too, but for that jazzy touch I think I prefer the chromatic thing.

And, as I said to Christian, a m6 is nice over the final two bars. The old ones are best :-)

I'll try the chromatic thing.

[stylo]

But the real point is: Can you play the damn thing! Otherwise what's the point?

You know, I almost had a disclaimer in my original post SPECIFYING that I knew this wasn't about playing it. I'm interested in understanding the composition because I'm interested in songwriting. This is not helpful.

That might confuse him.

Her.

[stylo]

- it’s a sub for the original changes; the originals don’t have that bit in green IIRC. It’s just Gm

[FONT=&amp]Which is why I think a simple walk down on G- suits the soundof the tune better than jumping around with those 2-5s. It falls in with the summing up of the drama. Jumping around with 2-5s sounds terrible to me. Then using an Eb6 instead of an A half dim gives some nice variation for the final cadence. Finally, using G-6 as the minor 1 chord can be more effective in general because it signifies a 1 rather than a 2.

Gotcha thanks, this is useful to know. Yeah I'm looking at the old Real Book (key of E-) and it has E-7 Eb7 | D-7 Db7 | Cmaj7 | B7b9 | E-. Which is more along the lines of "step down progression." I didn't realize the changes I posted were subbed for the original.

- Don’t play Gm7. The correct chord there is Gm6 or at a push Gm(maj7), a better sound for a tonic minor chord.

Yep! That's how I'm learning it.

There's always a logic to it, either 2-5's, chromatic connecting chords, tritone subs, backdoor subs, or some other such thing. It's only in the modern modal pieces that the chords appear random. With these standards there aren't many which have odd progressions.

I agree, part of my goal in understanding this one is to understand what is "common" for jazz progressions. When I see something I'm not familiar with I want to know what's going on there.

It is a III-VI-II-V in Eb. People actually do play this so I wouldn't be too dismissive of it. Whoever said the last A-7b5 should be Ebmaj7 is right. They are closely related chords so not a big deal.

Thanks, this is helpful. I have seen 1-6-2-5-1 but this is my first 3-6-2-5 turnaround.

[stylo]

I'm finding this helpful from a theoretical side as well: The Ultimate No Nonsense Guide to Jazz Harmony (jazzguitarlessons.net)

Thanks for your answers.

[PMB]

It's also worth noting that in many of the classic instrumental recordings - Bill Evans (Portrait in Jazz), Wynton Kelly (Wynton Kelly!), Tal Farlow (The Interpretations of Tal Farlow), Jim Hall (Alone Together) - the last Am7b5 is usually played as some kind of dominant, eg A7#5#9 or Eb13 in place of Am7b5 or Ebmaj7, giving it a more blues-tinged quality that helps highlight the final progression.

[stylo]

[FONT=&amp]Then using an Eb6 instead of an A half dim gives some nice variation for the final cadence.

If using an Eb6 here, are there any nice sounding extensions that can be played on it? I'm doing the shell voicing x655xx, there's a 9 available on the second string but not sure it sounds right.

[T Monk]

I like the major sound, so the first thing I would do is try the typical major variations if you can grab them. You could play a major 7 with the 6 as the melody note or you could try the #11.