-
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
There's the plain Phrygian and the Spanish Phrygian. Think Am - G - F - E and you'll know why there's a G# in the Spanish version. Olé!
-
11-06-2021 03:47 AM
-
Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
Over, say, an E7#9, I'd say it would depend on the context. You might want to play the ordinary Phrygian (C major with the natural G) and be more in tune with the #9 in the chord. Or you might want to play the Spanish Phrygian with the G# and let the chord produce the dissonance. It depends how it would sound in the context of the particular tune.
Of course, being jazz improvisation, you could certainly try playing both the G and G# in the line if it suited. It's perfectly permissible, although, personally, it's something I'd definitely want to try first.
-
Yea... we could call the 8 note version... the Bebop Phrygian Dominant scale, the notes in the chord are all in Bebop Dorian scale LOL
A note... working people in the publishing and other $ making sides of music have been using,
" Standard Chord Symbol Notation ", by Carl Brant and Clinton Roemer since the mid 70's.
( I've been posting this for years). And I personally don't like, in the book, the use of #5 when for the last 40 years.... b13 has been common practice and what is implied in most cases. Most music programs have been using the reference.
But like Christian said... when your employed to read and play a part, or cover a chair etc... you generally already know all this info.
-
The preferred Berklee term iirc is mixolydian b9 b13 which is a bit long winded in my opinion
in the Arabic maqam system it is called Hejaz or Hijaz
If I ran everything I would call it the 7b9b13 scale. And everyone would measure all quantities in SI. And I would bulldoze all European cities and replace them with a block system. And decimalise time. And abolish trousers….
Anyway where was I?
Ah, yes. It’s all a convoluted thing anyway as mostly this scale is used on chord V of the minor key, as is its close cousin the mixolydian b13. You find all this stuff in Bach.
-
There are different opinions on the scale, obviously.
We need a ruling. Maybe Sarah Thomas can assist.
-
Anyway, I think the proliferation of scale names is not helpful. As I say, if I could just use the chord name that would be best as Phrygian, Locrian etc serves no function other than making things sound more complicated than they are, but people seem to think the names are important.
8 note scales obviously don’t fit into this scheme so well though. TBH the ‘Spanish Phrygian’ is what you get when you sit on the V of a minor key, and in real life music the natural and harmonic minors are used in combination (along with melodic for that matter.) Naming it is …. less important. And in jazz melodies we can see plenty of examples of both major 3rds and so called ‘#9s’ (in fact minor thirds) used over minor key V chords. Blue Bossa is the example I always give cos everyone knows it….
In Barry’s teaching we learn to use the dominant scale on G7 say and run it into Am using a G#. It’s the same stuff, but the advantage is by the time we get to it we’ve learned ton of hip shit we can play on G7. in fact Barry suggests not using the G# too much in case we get locked into the less familiar harmonic minor.
If you look at it in this sort of application based way, You can boil everything down to major, minor and dominant even for advanced applications.
Application based use of scales is the most powerful. You then spend most of your time practicing and applying two main scales (say mixolydian/dominant or melodic minor) with other scales like diminished etc used for special effect.
So yeah… E7b9 —-> G mixolydian/dominant with an option to use G#, call it what you like, but it seems clear to me that it’s easier to use a scale you already know (hopefully).
-
So what is/are the favored chord scale(s) for Dom7#9 again? (not Dom7b9)
-
Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
Taking E7#9 as an example:
Em pentatonic, Em blues, E7alt ( F mel m), C harmonic major, E H/W diminished.
Also (ignore the error message, the page displays and is on a reliable website):
www.jazzadvice.com | 520: Web server is returning an unknown errorLast edited by ragman1; 11-06-2021 at 01:56 PM.
-
Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
Also Dom#9 is what people write down when jazz players play a b3 on a dominant chord, which they do obviously a LOT.
I would say there are relatively few instances with 7#9, where one of the stock theory choices - the altered - sounds like the most natural choice on this specific chord which most frequently turns up on a secondary dominant.
As to what my favourite players do here:
- ignore the chord and play diatonically
- play the minor pentatonic on it (or on the key centre sometimes)
- use one of the bop approaches I described above
- use the dominant diminished scale for a Coltrane style sound
But context and your ears are the best guide. Altered almost always sounds good on V for example.
-
By far the simplest way is just use the blues scale. E7#9 = Em blues.
I just put the others in because they're there. Not many people would bother with more than the blues or altered.
An exception would probably be the E7#9 in a 12-bar blues in G where you'd just keep playing as though it was still the G chord... it's what I do anyway.
-
Christian -
Can you think of a tune where the 7#9 is a prominent chord?
-
Originally Posted by ragman1
I also think diatonic. Like a V7#9 is generally what happens when someone is play a melody on I natural minor or mixolydian etc and the rhythm section plays V7. It’s a composite, mildly bitonal minor on major sound. It’s one of the basic elements of jazz; obviously blues, 30s/40s music, minor or major, big band swing, Charlie christian etc etc
If you are going to make a thing of it, you can use scales which feature a minor third (G in our key). One of my favourites is F melodic minor of course. CST people would say ‘ah yes Dorian b9’ for some reason… 13#9 is usually associated with dominant diminished but these another hip option that also works well
In general in jazz I would say the 3–>1 resolution in V-Is is quite a good thing to get away from. You can soften it by playing more of a V7sus sound (Wes style) but also by playing a minor or diminished on dominant thing and resolving upwards to the major 7 on the I chord using the b3. Sounds hip!
For example, V Dorian b9 or V locrian - I (or Phrygian of course) if your brain works like that…
-
Originally Posted by ragman1
So you are looking for a b3 melody on a definite dominant chord.
a lot of the these you’ll find in standards with a #9, like A7#9 in C, are subs of other chords that fit the melody more conventionally, so Am7 or maybe Ebo7; so that may not count.
The most obvious example is Blue Bossa. The melody descends the C natural minor scale over a C minor II V I and the Bb is prominent against the G7. That’s definitely what was written and played.
All Blues is a very obvious example as well.
Im sure I could think of a few more. Kind Folk by Kenny Wheeler has a couple?
Ellington used it a lot IIRC
In general it’s usually written like it’s a diatonic melody at that point and the composer just swapped a diatonic chord for a secondary dominant. Not always though, Parker writes an Eb on C7 in Blues for Alice at the end, and that’s the V7?
Jobim often subbed V7 for Vm7 too, going the other way. Dindi is a good example. Better movement to Imaj7
i think 7#9 is a bit misunderstood
The other thing is it’s such a basic sound in 20th century music we don’t even notice it.Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-06-2021 at 02:23 PM.
-
Oh Jordan has a a nice concept that he calls ‘the blue triad’ - quite simply Cm against C. Cm6 sounds badass on C6. Instant Sco. Or Charlie Christian depending how you play it. So C6#9? The sound of the late 30s and early 40s!
Use a b7 instead and you have the C7#9 sound right there obviously…
-
Oh, god, you're complicated! No, just a tune with a prominent 7#9 as part of the form, like D7b5 is a part of A Train.
Blue Bossa doesn't have a 7#9, it's just implied by the Bb over the standard G7. You might be on to something with All Blues in bar 9 (RB version).
(P.S. If we can't think of one it doesn't look like Don has much to worry about :-))
-
Originally Posted by ragman1
Things Ain’t what They Used to Be speaking of Ellington
-
Yes! Thank you (I knew you could do it)
Now that's got several bars of 7#9... not that I've tried it (yet).
-
Originally Posted by ragman1
in that case, glad to be of service.
Anyway, look at the melody
-
Benny Carter just plays the pentatonic. Fancy that
Solo at 1.22 and ED BICKERT solos at 3.54. Yes!
-
Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
-
Just looked at the chart.
The joke is the chord I would think of as being 7#9 in that tune -in bar 11, isn’t labelled as such
The ‘F7#9’ isn’t actually that at all, the G# is a lower neighbour tone.
The more usual key of the tune is Db, although Benny is playing a version in Bb. Nice version btw.
I give up anyway, not much point discussing the finer points here, I’m not sure anyone is terribly interested. Be cautious of looking for mechanical approaches to jazz harmony and pay more attention to the melody than to Real Book chord symbols.
-
-
All Blues.
-
Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
-
Look Blue Bossa’s got a #9 but only if you are reading it from a Bb part!
16" 1920s/30s L5
Yesterday, 08:44 PM in For Sale