Why can't "modern" compers play like Freddie Green?

**mr. beaumont** · 09-11-2020, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

What. A. Dick.

lol.

Just had to take a shot at the rhythm guitar n*zis on the internet. Tal sounds great...don't think he's even playing chords, is he?

I like the Herb Ellis/Ray Crawford bongo trick...though I wonder if I pulled that out on a gig, would a lot of players "get" it?

**Greentone** · 09-11-2020, 11:40 AM

Agree...the bongo thing that Ellis did a bunch in the Peterson Trio was neat, but it was a period piece for when the bongos were "of the moment." I wouldn't do that now.

**mr. beaumont** · 09-11-2020, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Agree...the bongo thing that Ellis did a bunch in the Peterson Trio was neat, but it was a period piece for when the bongos were "of the moment." I wouldn't do that now.

Seriously though, post Covid I really want to put together a drummerless trio. It's a goal.

**Greentone** · 09-11-2020, 01:22 PM

I've been in a drummerless situation for a few years now...a Jim Hall/Bill Evans-type deal. It is tremendous fun.

**Marinero** · 09-11-2020, 01:27 PM

I think it was Hep ,in another post, who remarked that the Jazz guitar, in its inception, was initially an accompaniment instrument. And, if I remember it correctly, that he could be happy fulfilling that specific role as a guitarist. This is relevant since the role of the early JG was to establish a steady rhythm that moved the music forward with the piano, bass, drums and orchestra. And, it was this essential role that served as a launching pad for guitar to later become a solo, lyrical instrument. So, I think it is fair to say that in comparison to other instruments, it came late to the melodic game. In doing so, as it evolved, it drew musicians from many different backgrounds/styles who ultimately constructed the multi-faceted face of the instrument today.
So, when we use terms like "Jazz" and "improvisation" we must understand that they mean many things to many people and there is ,for me, no hard-set definition--although C@W/Rap/Hard Rock,for me, is not Jazz. What we must decide for ourselves is what these terms mean and to follow our instincts to fruition. If we look at JG's like Pat Martino, Jim Hall, Pat Metheny, Django,Grant Green, Bucky Pizarelli, Wes, Russell Malone, for example, we see widely varying styles/concepts of "what is Jazz guitar?" And, it is this richness in concept that makes this art form so interesting.
The bottom line, for me, is to first become a good musician and secondly to follow your personality in developing your own sound since the worst "compliment for me would be for someone to say, "You sound just like Wes, Joe, or Kenny." Jazz is a creative art form and it should reflect the personal voice of the musician. Play live . . . Marinero

**clebergf** · 09-11-2020, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Seriously though, post Covid I really want to put together a drummerless trio. It's a goal.

I hope you are really talking seriously (xD) because I would love to hear you playing in a drummerless trio. I have a friend here in Brazil that has some kind of a Nat King Tribute trio and I love them.

**Hep To The Jive** · 09-11-2020, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Marinero

I think it was Hep ,in another post, who remarked that the Jazz guitar, in its inception, was initially an accompaniment instrument. And, if I remember it correctly, that he could be happy fulfilling that specific role as a guitarist. This is relevant since the role of the early JG was to establish a steady rhythm that moved the music forward with the piano, bass, drums and orchestra. And, it was this essential role that served as a launching pad for guitar to later become a solo, lyrical instrument. So, I think it is fair to say that in comparison to other instruments, it came late to the melodic game. In doing so, as it evolved, it drew musicians from many different backgrounds/styles who ultimately constructed the multi-faceted face of the instrument today.
So, when we use terms like "Jazz" and "improvisation" we must understand that they mean many things to many people and there is ,for me, no hard-set definition--although C@W/Rap/Hard Rock,for me, is not Jazz. What we must decide for ourselves is what these terms mean and to follow our instincts to fruition. If we look at JG's like Pat Martino, Jim Hall, Pat Metheny, Django,Grant Green, Bucky Pizarelli, Wes, Russell Malone, for example, we see widely varying styles/concepts of "what is Jazz guitar?" And, it is this richness in concept that makes this art form so interesting.
The bottom line, for me, is to first become a good musician and secondly to follow your personality in developing your own sound since the worst "compliment for me would be for someone to say, "You sound just like Wes, Joe, or Kenny." Jazz is a creative art form and it should reflect the personal voice of the musician. Play live . . . Marinero

That is correct, that's how I view it. My concept is rhythm function first, solo is just a icing on the cake. I love rhythm guitar in all styles and forms, and I'm pretty natural in adapting and locking in with the rhythm section. Or being the rhythm section.

Last gig I did with the full band, we played a Van Halen song, followed by a Frank Sinatra song. No problem.

**sgcim** · 09-12-2020, 07:37 PM

I recently read FG's biography by one of his sons, and the consensus from everyone involved, including one of the the posters here, djg, is that you've got to have an acoustic archtop that is set up in such a way, that is impossible to take a solo on it.

If you really want to sound like FG, the action has to be so high, the gauge of strings have to be so thick, and the guitar you play has to project so loud acoustically, that you can only use it for sounding like FG.

He used mammoth guitars like Strombergs and his Gretsch El Dorado, where the action on the low E string was one half inch high!
Then you have to master the art of improvised jazz counterpoint with the bass, while at the same time developing the ability to all but muffle notes on any string but the D string, the string you're playing improvised jazz counterpoint with the bass on.

I made the mistake of bringing my '35 D'A to a big band rehearsal without an amp, but I was just pissing in the rain. I had the action too low, I used strings that were too light gauge, and the guitar was only a 16" FG used an 18".

**princeplanet** · 09-12-2020, 10:30 PM

FG style comping is obviously quite nuanced, so perhaps, as the OP, I should have just replaced "FG style comping" with "4 to the bar" comping. My point was just to share a simple observation that sometimes even experienced jazz guitarists struggle to make "4 to the bar" sound musical. It's the strike, the clean grab, the right length, the right release / dampening, the right tone, the right swing feel etc. Such a basic, fundamental skill, right?

If I was a a band leader auditioning guitar players for bop or straight ahead type band, I probably wouldn't hire the guy that didn't have good, solid basic time feel underpinning their complex time. When I hear a guy sounding wishy washy with "blurry" time, I'm betting he would probably fail the 4 to the bar test.

**PMB** · 09-13-2020, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Our own Jonathan Stout refers to himself as a pre-bebop guitarist. He can swing 'the old fasioned way.' He's also aware of the difference between the swing of Freddie Green and that of, say, Barney Kessel and Herb Ellis (and so on). His blog is a great resource.

Here he is with a block chord version of "Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea." (Not the same thing but you'll be glad you listened.)

Definitely an Allan Reuss fan. I hear quite a bit of difference between contemporaries such as George Van Eps, Freddie Green, Dick McDonough and Reuss let alone between that group and players of the younger generation like Barney and Herb.

**PMB** · 09-13-2020, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

He is absolutely amazing on that cut. A tragedy he didn't live longer.

Yeah, that solo's like Tristano's "Line Up" as played by Bud Powell. A great loss.

**Greentone** · 09-13-2020, 10:13 AM

Remember, there are players who _can_ play like Green. However, contemporary swing bands and orchestras don't sound like the ones that played in the 30s and 40s. There has been an evolution of both the music and--in particular--the demand by young and old listeners for the music.

I think that players like Hep to the Jive represent the best of what contemporary rhythm players are doing with acoustic and amplified acoustic archtop playing. It really glues together the _contemporary_ homage to swing that is being presented, these days.

As has already been mentioned, even Freddie Green didn't (in the 50s and subsequently) play quite what he was doing in the earlier era--the music had moved on and his employer, the Count Basie organization, was presenting music differently than it had.

**pcsanwald** · 09-13-2020, 01:01 PM

when I first started studying with Rodney Jones in the early 2000s, literally the first thing he wanted to hear was how I played four to the bar rhythm guitar. His opinion was that if a student couldn't do that, they should work on it until they could.

Another cat I haven't seen mentioned who is a GREAT 4 to the bar player is Martijn Van Iterson.

**christianm77** · 09-13-2020, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

FG style comping is obviously quite nuanced, so perhaps, as the OP, I should have just replaced "FG style comping" with "4 to the bar" comping. My point was just to share a simple observation that sometimes even experienced jazz guitarists struggle to make "4 to the bar" sound musical. It's the strike, the clean grab, the right length, the right release / dampening, the right tone, the right swing feel etc. Such a basic, fundamental skill, right?

If I was a a band leader auditioning guitar players for bop or straight ahead type band, I probably wouldn't hire the guy that didn't have good, solid basic time feel underpinning their complex time. When I hear a guy sounding wishy washy with "blurry" time, I'm betting he would probably fail the 4 to the bar test.

I think that’s true.

here’s Ben Monder doing it:

Mind you his teacher was Chuck Wayne who was a dab hand

**christianm77** · 09-13-2020, 05:30 PM

The most common mistake people make often is to think they have to make 2 and 4 louder rather than a change of accent long-short-long-short.

**christianm77** · 09-13-2020, 05:31 PM

Or all 4 the same length with a short, but fat articulation

**mr. beaumont** · 09-13-2020, 06:56 PM

I think there's real value in it, personally. I've been using a more Barry Galbraith/Ranger Doug kind of rhythm for the last few years, and it's become one of the various ways I study a tune--simply playing rhythm and singing lines.

**cosmic gumbo** · 09-13-2020, 09:47 PM

After playing in big bands for 15+ years, the concensus among the other players and band directors was that most guitarists can't play swing rhythm guitar as well as they should, and bands are content without a guitarist, rather than one who can't swing right, or use the proper type of chords. It always made me feel special that I got respect for getting it right.

JLCO curated this concert of authentic 30's era big band swing music, and it's a masterclass in how to play the genre. They even had James Chrillo play a big acoustic with a mic in front of it, which allowed him to approach it even more authentically than someone using electric guitar.

Look, listen, and learn.

**Webby** · 09-14-2020, 01:31 AM

Playing swing rhythm guitar has been my main Gig for quite a while, and the fact that mit people don't get it right opened up a lot of doors for me, i got to play with some Bands, that i otherwise wouldn't have had the Chance to play with.

I'll throw in some thoughts:

The FG-comping thing is about Volume in a lot of ways, which is not a problem with an electric. So in order to achieve a convincing Sound i believe the attitude should always be a bit of a fight for being heard. That certainly can be done on an electric, but I gotta say, that i only really understood that stuff after playing acoustic for quite a while. You need to understand what it feels like not being able to just turn up the Volume to get it right.

The other thing which hasn't been mentioned yet: Swing has always been music for dancing. There is something about playing for dancers, which (at least in my case) can only be unserstood in doing so. I feel like the slightest changes in your articulation can have a huge impact on how it feels to dance to the music, and therefore if the tune is taking off, or not.

For me, besides Listening to the recordings, the best Ressource on this style of comping has been this Diploma thesis about the role of the guitar in that basie Band, which is linked on the freddie Green Website. There's explained in many Details how FG approached his comping style, and also how it changed over the years.

Oh and lastly:
I hate it when people tell you you can't play unamplified in a modern big band, because they are louder. I strongly encourage everyone to try it though because more often then not it does work out.

Modern Bigband with a modern drumkit and me with a cheap plywood Höfner acoustic:
In A Mellow Tone by Swingcat - Listen to music

Paul

**christianm77** · 09-14-2020, 06:14 AM

Hey Webby that sounds great! Excellent big band, they even have dynamics. I'm surprised by how loud the guitar is in the mix - was the mic next to it?

The thing to remember whether acoustic or amplified is that the rhythm guitar isn't always needed to be heard, especially in loud tutti passages with big drums. It's nice when it pokes its head out in the quiet sections and sits low in the mix at other times and basically act as a nice stock or roux for all the other elements in the broth.

Also acoustic band shells are AMAZING. We have a bandstand close to where I live with an old school band shell and it's amazing how everything balances.... The miking in a big band should just be a replacement for that IMO... subtle sound reinforcement, nothing more.

(OTOH people sometimes expect me to play solos, so a volume pedal is handy....)

**Webby** · 09-15-2020, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Hey Webby that sounds great! Excellent big band, they even have dynamics. I'm surprised by how loud the guitar is in the mix - was the mic next to it?

Thanks a lot!
Actually no, just a Zoom-Recorder in Front of the Band (Center)
That is one of those Bands that certainly wouldn't hire me if it wasn't for the lack of rhythm guitarists.

Originally Posted by christianm77

The thing to remember whether acoustic or amplified is that the rhythm guitar isn't always needed to be heard, especially in loud tutti passages with big drums. It's nice when it pokes its head out in the quiet sections and sits low in the mix at other times and basically act as a nice stock or roux for all the other elements in the broth.

Also acoustic band shells are AMAZING. We have a bandstand close to where I live with an old school band shell and it's amazing how everything balances.... The miking in a big band should just be a replacement for that IMO... subtle sound reinforcement, nothing more.

(OTOH people sometimes expect me to play solos, so a volume pedal is handy....)

100 times yes!!!
I strongly believe that at least for Big Bands less is more concerning amplicication!

Paul

**christianm77** · 09-15-2020, 08:29 AM

Well you do a bang up job! I'm sure they're glad to have you.

**frankhond** · 10-03-2020, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

The most common mistake people make often is to think they have to make 2 and 4 louder rather than a change of accent long-short-long-short.

Wouldn’t that make it charleston?

**frankhond** · 10-03-2020, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Sounds like an excellent way to teach rock guitar to me. It might at least turn out players who can do something a bit more musical than the wannabe teenage shredders I hear every time I visit a guitar shop.

Having studied the music of Son House, as well as Rev Gary Davis, MJH, and several other names in that genre for at least 6 years with the help of two master players, one of which recorded on Kicking Mule... I have come to the conclusion that, paradoxically, while this music is a stepping stone to rock, learning it has very little to do with learning modern rock.

I will grant, however, that the skills could be applied to creating some new genre.