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What ever happened to "passing chord"?
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06-28-2020 01:49 PM
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C#dim7.... C# E G A# ( or Dbdim7... Db Fb Abb Cbb)
Typical Dom7 subs from Diminished chords...A7, Eb7. C7 and F#7
-C# and G are tritone of A7, the secondary V7 of II. then invert and...
- G and C# are tritone of Eb7 the Sub of A7
E and A# are tritone of C7, the secondary V7 of IV. then invert and becomes F#7, it's sub
You can then start playing the Borrowing game... Relative and Parallel Minor Reference game for more labels.
Again if you actually try and organize extensions, the other notes.... How or what you label has melodic implications.
So doc... if your calling the C#Dim7 chord a sub for VI7b9 and your reference is,
C7 A7b9 D-7 G7.... even with the C7 the A7b9 is just a secondary Dom. of II-7. Typically the notes of that V7 of II- would be... A Bb (C) C# D E F G or pre-50-60 years ago...Target Harmonic Min. or D har min V7b9b13 1 b9 3 11 5 b13 b7... add #9 and Altered from MM are somewhat newer....but very common.
Yea bIIdim7 implies more of chromatic... passing or approach non-dominant function, as mentioned also...
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Didn't the Duke tell us something about the biii07..
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Originally Posted by doc w
How would you indicate a minor major seventh chord - Im7 and Imb7 for minor seventh? So your ii-V-I would be iimb7-Vb7-I7 ? Makes a certain kind of sense to me but I find it hard to parse on the fly.
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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for whatever reason the term "diminished" causes alot of confusion..much like traffic signals..ok red is stop..green is go...but suddenly !!! the light turns BLUE..blue?..what the hell does blue mean??
and here we go..is it a passing chord or a misnamed dominant..and if its a diminished chord..is it from a Idim7 IVdim7 or a Vdim7 family
Idim7 chords
C Eb Gb A
IVdim7 chords
F Ab B D
Vdim7 chords
G Bb Db E
so lets see if we have all the notes of the chromatic scale here
C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B
so if I erase the notes from each group..I should have none left
Idim7 (notes left)
Db D E F G Ab Bb B
IVdim7 (notes left)
Db E G Bb
Vdim7 and...
Ta-Da !!
so lets see
so..the progression in question is
CMA7 C#/Db ?? Dmi7 G7
the Db is in the V7dim family..what does V7 tell us about its function...passing or dominant
to me I would consider it a dominant function and being the progression is in a diatonic harmony framework
I would then consider it a A7b9/C#
and then it becomes a very familiar progression
IMa7 Vi7b9 iim7 V7
Even if the I chord is a dominant C7..the remaining chords are not altering its function at all ..
and as C7 A7 can be related via symmetrical harmony
it reinforces the function of the of the C#dim7 as an A7b9
just my take
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Originally Posted by doc w
C Major = C = CM = Cmaj = C? = I (means no seventh) so C E G
C Major seventh = Cmaj7 = Cma7 = CM7 = C?7 = Imaj7 = IM7 (means B) so C E G B
C Dominant Seventh = C7 = I7 (means Bb, the dominant seventh b7) so C E G Bb
edit--- I notice the triangle symbol used for "major" is showing up as "?", works in edit, not when posted.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Cad!
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Originally Posted by pauln
So, the triad built on the first degree of the scale is a major triad. If I add the seventh degree of the scale, I get the chord I7. So far, I have not made any reference to key, only Roman numerals. I7 is a major seven chord regardless of the key in which it appears.
However, if we step away from Roman numerals for a moment, and name a specific chord, like C7, we are now talking about a dominant 7 chord, i.e., the dominant 7 in the key of F.
I7 is not a dominant 7 chord. It is a chord built on the tonic with a seven added. It would be a major seven because it is on the first degree of the scale. In the same way, ii7 is not a dominant 7 chord. It is simply the triad of the second degree of the scale with a 7 added. In this case, because it is the second degree of the scale, the added 7 interval is a minor seven.
C7 Is not a major seven chord but a dominant 7 chord because it is built on the fifth degree of the scale of F major (which has a Bb). There is no Bb in the key of C.
Man, this is getting dense!
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I have marked the parts that I think are incorrect as red...
Initially, I was talking mainly about Roman (and arabic) numbers.
So, the triad built on the first degree of the scale is a major triad. If I add the seventh degree of the scale, I get the chord I7. So far, I have not made any reference to key, only Roman numerals. I7 is a major seven chord regardless of the key in which it appears.
However, if we step away from Roman numerals for a moment, and name a specific chord, like C7, we are now talking about a dominant 7 chord, i.e., the dominant 7 in the key of F.
I7 is not a dominant 7 chord. It is a chord built on the tonic with a seven added. It would be a major seven because it is on the first degree of the scale. In the same way, ii7 is not a dominant 7 chord. It is simply the triad of the second degree of the scale with a 7 added. In this case, because it is the second degree of the scale, the added 7 interval is a minor seven.
C7 Is not a major seven chord but a dominant 7 chord because it is built on the fifth degree of the scale of F major (which has a Bb). There is no Bb in the key of C.
Man, this is getting dense!
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Originally Posted by pauln
If we now plop I7 into an actual key, say C major, we get C E G B. I am repeating myself now, but there is no Bb in the key of C. Thus I7 is always going to be a major seventh chord. It is never going to be a dominant 7.
My background is classical. Maybe we just do things differently.
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Originally Posted by doc w
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Originally Posted by doc w
I think when jazzers write I7 they mean I 'dominant' seventh, like the chord symbol.
I understand this would be word salad to a classical theorist. So use the term major-minor seventh if you prefer.
But the upshot is that that chord symbol always applies to the structure 1 3 5 b7 whether it is acting as a dominant, or note (such as in the case of a blues.) That's how I use it. Confusing I know.
Not like figured bass, where 7 just tells you it's a diatonic 7th chord unless otherwise indicated, which is the convention I think you are using.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
Blues harmony and modes are a mess in that sense... I7 is dominant (Bb in C major) but V7 contains B nat... F7 has Eb but C7 has an E nat...
I hear blues harmony as just set of dominant chords that are based parallel movemenet of 3rd - 7th combinations (something like linear shell voicings).... it does not really function as dominant function in classical sense to my ear
I guess with numenrals in blues it is sort of convention that on very chord there is a dominant scale presumed.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by Jonah
Cmaj7 C#o7 | Cm7 F7
then
Imaj7 #Io7 | IIm7 V7
ought to make sense.
For short hand I generally just notate basic sounds and leave it open, unless I want to specify extensions.
I I#o7 | IIm7 V7 |
So
C = C major (Cmaj7, C6, Cmaj9, C6/9 etc)
Cm = C minor (Cm, Cm6, Cm(maj7)) 'true minor'
Cm7 = C minor seventh (Cm7,. Cm9, Cm11 etc) 'subdominant minor'
C7 = C dominant seventh (C7, C9, C13, C7#9, C7alt etc)
Cm7b5 = Eb minor of course :-)
Co7 = C diminished seventh (Co7, Co7(maj7) etc)
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Yes, I remember.
In jazz it is just 'two part symbol'
you have scale number in Roman numeral
you have chord quality symbol
Very analytic construction
I + maj7 = major seveth chord on th 1st degree of the key or scale in reference of ocontext
In classical it is more synthetic code, both parts (especially 2nd part) could mean different things and it depends on context how to 'decode' them.... more references involved.
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Originally Posted by Jonah
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Originally Posted by pcjazz
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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Sometimes blues has the minor seventh, sometimes a 6th on the I chord. Parker liked to play major seventh a lot.
the old swing blues scale is with a 6th
1 2 b3 3 5 6 1
b7s could be used too but it’s only when people started to add major sevenths or voicings that blues chords and major chords became more difficult to reconcile.
b7 on all the chords in a blues is more like a Blue note era vibe
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At the end of the day, I use the Roman numeral method to talk about changes in general, but even that is kind of limited if there is a lot, or even some, modulation in a given piece.
I use standard chord symbols. "Standard" is a bit of a joke in jazz since, however. The great thing about standards is that eveyone can have their own.
So I wilil probably still write Cmaj7 C#dim7 Dm7 G7, even though I know deep down that the second chord is actually VI7b9 with no root.. first inversion... or ... whatever.
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Originally Posted by doc w
diminished seventh chords
major seventh and six nine chords
augmented (no seventh) chords
minor major seventh chords
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Originally Posted by pauln
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Originally Posted by doc w
Vintage fuzz on "space" transistors
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