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Tuck Andress is another master of combing, as is Mick Goodrick and Ron Eschete, the latter being one of the most unsung jazz players ever!
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05-01-2020 11:28 AM
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Fair enough. But for a different perspective, I know a bassist that's worked with a 'who's who' of jazz, including pianists Hank Jones, Barry Harris, Tommy Flanagan, and he maintains he's taken his best solos with Herb Ellis comping for him, because Herb's time feel and groove were so strong...
Originally Posted by lawson-stone
PK
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With hair like his, he needs to be! Originally Posted by Alter
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Lawson, out of curiosity, what are some examples where you hear Herb as "over comping."
Also (not directed at anyone in particular) rhythm guitar is not comping. It's it's own thing.
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What is it with guitarists? Guitarists make distinctions that musicians on other instruments don't make. "Rhythm guitar" vs. "comping," for example- no one ever speaks of "rhythm piano." Or "rhythm" vs. "lead" guitar. Or "chord melody," which neither pianists, organists nor horn players do. They just play the song. Bass players don't talk about comping or not. I am always puzzled by the perceived need for this terminology and the implicit sense of valuation vs. devaluation.
Comping is not a putdown. "Comping" is short for "accompanying." If you're playing with others, you're accompanying them whether you like it or not. I find that comping for others is the most fun and the most challenge I have in playing guitar: bridging the drums, bass and lead voice to make the band sound coherent and directional, and during solos intuiting where the line is going and being there with the right sound at the right time, maybe with a suggestion or surprise for them.
Anyone can solo. Not just anyone can make a soloist sound good, although it's easy to make them sound bad.
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No, in jazz, rhythm guitar is a very specific thing. It just is. It refers to a very specific way of playing.
It's not a put down or anything related to rock guitar lead/rhythm BS. But if you ask me to "comp" or ask me to play "rhythm guitar," those are different ways of playing.
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Exactly. Some of my big-band rhythm charts have notations to "comp" or "comp lightly" or "comp freely" in certain choruses. Rhythm guitar is playing a defined rhythm while comping is hitting chords where you think they're needed. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Danny W.
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Jim Hall, Ed Bickert. Originally Posted by tonyb300
To comp or not to comp..... ........
....
HOW MANY JAZZ GUITARISTS MADE A BIG NAME FOR THEMSELVES OR MADE A HUGE ARTISTIC STATEMENT COMPING?
.......... ZERO.
....
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As long as you're also talking at a distracting loud level, then no Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
But seriously folks, bass players I love you (er, upright only...not electric).
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BTW when I wake up tomorrow there better be some uke jazz to go with my smashed avocados. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
(I think I am losing it)
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Another guitar player wanted to sit in at some point a jam session one time
i was in the house band
i'd already played on few of tunes thus far
he said 'its ok I'll sit out a couple more tunes
so you get a chance to improvise a bit'
i said ' no it's fine , I've been improvising the whole time'
that's sounds pretentious I know ...
i just meant I was making stuff up .... as you do
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I read an article in Keyboard magazine a couple of decades ago titled something like "the art of comping" that explains it quite well.
If anyone thinks comping is simply playing chords/rhythm guitar you don't really know what it is. Yes, it's playing rhythmic chords but also filling in appropriate riffs when the melody hits rests. So the added riffs would usually last anywhere from 2 to 4 beats when comping for a vocalist. Chord melody (riffs) will work better than single note melodies of course.
Joe Pass said that comping is just as enjoyable (if not more so) as soloing.
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"completely incorrect" "your own shortcomings" "SO, to wrap it all up" Originally Posted by ronjazz
Pretty arrogant statements when anyone with half a lick of sense knows that this is all just opinion and neither you or I are the true authorities on this subject. In fact I still think my view on it is a little more accurate than yours, you're still looking at it from a guitar geek viewpoint and not looking at the big picture. Most people don't GAF who's playing behind an artist until they get their solo.
I mentioned the average listener vs aspiring artists listening for different things and giving more appreciation to technical aspects of comping than the listeners who don't really pay that much attention to it. TBH I don't think I've ever read a critic's review on a recording from a big name Jazz guitarist that spent much time talking about their accompanying skills. 99.9% of the time they talk about how the artist speaks with their instrument in their improvisational solos, at least that's what I've seen for the most part.
.... and Jim Hall is a fabulous cat, I love my "Power of Three" CD with him, Shorter, and Petrucciani, and yes he's a sideman on it, but let's face facts. Jazz guitar fans and hardcore Jazz fans know him, but few others do and although a bandleader at times, not a major artist to the public.
I realize you speak for the chording camp but I stand by my statement, the most impactful (to the public) Jazz guitar happens when the player speaks with his instrument, not playing chords behind a singer.
So to say I'm "completely incorrect" infers that you are completely correct, is that what you're trying say?
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Not a lot, maybe Bucky, Pisano & Green aren't really big names and I've never heard of Bickert. Originally Posted by Cunamara
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I think you've just identified the underlying deficit for your position. Originally Posted by tonyb300
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Tony... Holy cow... Originally Posted by tonyb300
Critics routinely express appreciation for the comping skills of pianists, guitarists, bassists and drummers. There are hundreds of critical reviews, if not thousands, of jazz recordings that discuss the value of accompaniment. Jazz listeners also tend to understand this since they are typically far more educated in their listening skills than people listening to pop music only. Musicians also understand this. You say you've never heard of Ed Bickert, which is astonishing to me, and in that case you should buy a copy of the Pure Desmond album and read Paul Desmond's liner notes talking about his bandmates including Ed. He raised comping to the highest level of artistry and frankly said more doing that than most soloists do in their solos. You should definitely get some Ed Bickert recordings as you have a major treat ahead of you- start with the Desmond recordings and some of his records as a leader, too (Out of the Past is a great starting point).
You seem to be of the idea that comping is a denigrating thing to do and that the only thing that counts is soloing. You could not be more wrong about how jazz works. That attitude has been around for a long time; it particularly tends to infect amateur musicians, but it has also afflicted some professionals as well. Ego does sometimes take over. A good accompanist can make an idiot sound halfway decent and a bad accompanist can make a genius sound terrible.
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... and nobody ever approached Jazz in a different way? Originally Posted by Cunamara
Just the way people say "Jazz works".
I'll check out Bickert and if he's all that I'll admit it, but you have to keep in mind that cats that make home on this part of the game aren't very exciting to me.
As for reviews, I can't say I subscribe to DB & Jazziz but I've read some and unless it's a pianist backing a singer or horn player, I don't read that much about it. Either you're just trying to push your point or our experiences have been different, I'm not sure.
Fact is, my statement still stands and even though there are people here that know a lot more about Jazz guitar than I do, they still haven't proved me wrong.
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Mr Bickert is an excellent player, one of the unknown cats that you have to dig a little deeper to find, I like his trio stuff better than with Desmond, and even though he does a lot of chord melody and chord improve, his single note phrasings speak to me more. Originally Posted by Cunamara
It's just me & what I like in Jazz, people just have to accept that some things in music reach people differently and touch them in different places. Single note improv in a band setting speaks to me, some folks like solo guitar performances, as much as our instrument is the portable orchestra, I don't enjoy playing alone as much as playing with people, a like listening to solo guitar it even less.
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Having recently acquired the ability to record multitrack with Reaper and solo my parts ... I have concluded that comping is much harder than soloing.
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Comping is like a good listener in a conversation. A good listener doesn't just sit there and say nothing, they help the other person communicate and connect with them.
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Of course the audience tends to only notice the soloist, but what has that got to do with everything else that has to happen behind the soloist to make the music sound good? Buddy Rich used to win all the drum polls because all the public ever noticed were the big fancy drum solos, all the other stuff the drummer has to do was not so obvious to them.
When you are taking your burning guitar solo and hopefully getting the audience's attention, what if the pianist is doing some really crappy awkward comping behind you? Doesn't that matter?
Of course as a guitarist you can decide that you personally are not interested in comping, but that doesn't affect its importance. I think you are also missing out on half the fun.
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My dream job is comping for a tenor and trumpet in a quintet.
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I had that role for 7 years, some nights would only solo on a couple of tunes a set (and some nights would solo on all of them, depending how I felt). The audience noticed my comping and would talk to me about it.
The premise that the audience only notices the soloist (or the vocalist) is just incorrect. Imagine John Coltrane without McCoy Tyner.
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First off I have to say I appreciate the recent less knee jerk responses to my controversial statement, believe me, I have much more controversial views on Jazz as a whole, but that's an entirely different conversation for another thread to bicker over.
@rpjazzguitar - Comping *WELL* can be there hardest thing, but then playing inspired single note lines that keep the listener deeply engaged can be just as difficult or more so. That's a question of viewpoint, skill and artistic tendency.
@christianm77 - Good analogy, I'm a good listener talking with people, I've actually done a decent job comping on some tunes backing vocalists, never really enjoyed it that much or was inspired by those type of players that do that. If I could run around doing masterful lines like Pat Martino I'd be happy(although I can't yet), and maybe I was meant to be a horn player............ Although I probably could never be able to stand the smell of those things in my face.
@grahambop - The Buddy Rich thing kinda supports what I'm saying in a way, but yes, bad backing instruments will kill any performance, Jazz or otherwise. I guess nobody read the part where I said Jazz people have taken it to very high levels, and only focus what ticked them off. That said, I will admit it's just not that enjoyable or inspiring to me so it wouldn't be half the fun.
@cosmic gumbo - If that's true honesty I am 100% behind you, I wish everybody could accept mine.
@Cunamara - Funny you mention McCoy (RIP), one of my favorite cats, although I think Trane would have kicked azz no matter who was behind him. The way Tyner plays connects with me over a lot of other keyboardists, I don't know if it's the note spacing in his chords or what, but I transposed his piano parts to guitar on one of his tunes and was more than surprised at how well it came out. This also reaffirms what I said earlier that comping praise is *mostly* lavished on pianists backing singers or horn players. There is a little validity to the things I say.
Look guys don't hate me for telling the truth, I never said it should be abolished or taken over by MIDI sequenced digital pianos, I simply made a valid point.
Wes - Known for octave melody & solos, improv single note lines, some chord melody.
Burrell - Bluesy single note line, great tone.
Django - Blazing single note lines on an acoustic using only a couple fingers.
Christian - The first cat to blow single note lines to compete with horn players.
Benson - Single note melody, improv solos, scat singing with single note lines.
Metheny - Melody, single note lines, etc.
These are some of the most influential Jazz guitarists of all time and although Hall can be considered in those ranks by some, I don't think there is anybody on this forum that can refute this with the mentions of comping experts like Bickert, or cats like Barney Kessel, or Tal Farlow. As great artists as they are, they just haven't had the impact that the players I mention, that made a name speaking with their instrument through improvised solos rather than backing other artists.
It's simply fact.
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Here are a couple of comping anecdotes.
I had an opportunity to play with the Brazilian Master Amilton Godoy (Zimbo trio).
At the end of a tune, my last, held, note, basically sucked.
In an instant, Amilton played a chord that harmonized my sucky note so beautifully that my note sounded gorgeous. That's comping.
Another experience. One of my groups has been putting tracks together from home in the last month. I recorded a solo that sounded pretty mediocre, in context. The entire track sounded a little stark -- too empty, even though I think silence can be beautiful. I asked the pianist, who is basically an acoustic pianist, if he could add some B3 pad to the track. In response, he constructed a background to my solo that brought it back from the dead to vibrant life. The solo was seriously meh on it's own and sounded much, much better with the background part.
And, then, there's the repeated experience of it being much, much easier to solo (or do anything else) when the rhythm section is locked into the groove.
I think that audiences like the music when they can't resist moving along with it -- and that's the comping.
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Chunking, does it work for Jazz improv?
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