Jazzin' up old Blues Tunes

**ragman1** · 03-03-2020, 12:15 PM

Good idea!

See what crusoe thinks.

(I had Careless Love in the back of my mind. Simple progression that's easy to beef up with maj7s, ii-Vs, sec doms, tritone 7b5s, diminisheds, etc)

**mr. beaumont** · 03-03-2020, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Good idea!

See what crusoe thinks.

(I had Careless Love in the back of my mind. Simple progression that's easy to beef up with ma7s, ii-Vs, sec doms, tritone 7b5s, and diminisheds, etc)

That's another goodie. Simple, straightforward, but just enough intereting chord moves to be a blues, but a little different.

**ragman1** · 03-03-2020, 12:18 PM

But Down n Out is a very strong tune and not too predictable. You might have a point. Got minors in it too.

**ruger9** · 03-03-2020, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

There's a big difference. Jazzing a blues is just putting in extended chords like 9ths and 13ths, etc, and playing extended lines that outline those chords. And it generally sounds like a blues should but with more subtle sounds. But the progressions don't have to be 12 bars, they could be 8 or 16, and so forth.

Jazz players playing blues is like this. Sandu is just a straightforward jazz-blues 12-bar progression, nothing fancy, but the playing style isn't at all straightforward!

Still not getting the difference? What makes that video "a blues" instead of "jazz"? Like, if I'm in a trio and the leader calls out "lets do a blues in A"... wth does that mean? As opposed to "a jazz" in A? lol

**grahambop** · 03-03-2020, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by ruger9

Still not getting the difference? What makes that video "a blues" instead of "jazz"? Like, if I'm in a trio and the leader calls out "lets do a blues in A"... wth does that mean? As opposed to "a jazz" in A? lol

They are using the 12-bar blues form, see my post no. 44.

You seem a bit confused about this. They are playing jazz, just using a blues chord progression to do it. Jazz musicians have written hundreds of tunes using some kind of blues chord sequence, that is basically what they mean by a blues.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-03-2020, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by ruger9

Like, if I'm in a trio and the leader calls out "lets do a blues in A"... wth does that mean?

That he's trying to keep horn players off the bandstand.

But yeah, a "blues" is a type of music, and also an accepted form--12 bars. So a "blues in A" is a standard 12 bar form in the key of A. In jazz, there's a lot of variations, so obviously you have to listen...

There's no such thing as playing a "jazz" in A. I guess you could do an open ended improv thing based in A, but that'll probably ending up sounding more like some hippie band peaking on shrooms than jazz.

**grahambop** · 03-03-2020, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I guess you could do an open ended improv thing based in A, but that'll probably ending up sounding more like some hippie band peaking on shrooms than jazz.

I believe the Grateful Dead discussion is in another thread.

**ruger9** · 03-03-2020, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

They are using the 12-bar blues form, see my post no. 44.

You seem a bit confused about this.

Indeed. That's why I asked. It's called a "question", it's a means of gathering information.

Originally Posted by grahambop

They are playing jazz, just using a blues chord progression to do it. Jazz musicians have written hundreds of tunes using some kind of blues chord sequence, that is basically what they mean by a blues.

Ok. So. If a bunch of jazzers play a 12-bar progression, it's blues. If they play a I-IV-V, it's blues. And if bluesers play a ii-V-I, it's jazz? Is that how YOU are defining it? It's a serious question.

And if that IS how you are defining it, then we can further ask, what makes something a "bluesy jazz" as opposed to a "jazzy blues"...

**christianm77** · 03-03-2020, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I have. I like this too. I transcribe things I like. Plus, this doesn't have as many "How in the living fuck did he do that?" moments, because I can watch and listen. Win-win

fair point :-)

**christianm77** · 03-03-2020, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I probably will start today, but don't expect anything written out nicely. That's like school. I spend my whole life in school, I don't need to be in it at home too

When I say "transcribe," I really mean scribble down some stuff so I remember as I steal all the parts I like.

quite right

to be completely fair and not at all childish in my position as a postgraduate student of music pedagogy, writing out solos is for dorks. (Or for great readers with poor musical memory.)

**grahambop** · 03-03-2020, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by ruger9

Indeed. That's why I asked. It's called a "question", it's a means of gathering information.

Ok. So. If a bunch of jazzers play a 12-bar progression, it's blues. If they play a I-IV-V, it's blues. And if bluesers play a ii-V-I, it's jazz? Is that how YOU are defining it? It's a serious question.

And if that IS how you are defining it, then we can further ask, what makes something a "bluesy jazz" as opposed to a "jazzy blues"...

I was just trying to answer your question in terms of “what do jazz musicians mean when they say ‘let’s play a blues’”. As far as I know, I was using the commonly-accepted definitions of what they mean. I don’t think I can add anything further.

**ragman1** · 03-03-2020, 04:14 PM

They both play 12-bar stuff but they play it differently !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

joelf · 03-03-2020, 08:26 PM

Since people are posting their own, here's My Babe, from Melody Messenger.

I tried to keep the feeling of the blues guitar tradition by opening and closing in E with typical open string thingies, and keep interest by changing keys. All made up then and there IIRC. The single string solos are in the 'jazz' lexicon.

(The final cut on the CD ends in heretic-like fashion on that F Maj 7 #11 with sustain. Maybe I shouldda left it alone? Too late now)...

**mr. beaumont** · 03-03-2020, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by joelf

Since people are posting their own, here's My Babe, from Melody Messenger.

I tried to keep the feeling of the blues guitar tradition by opening and closing in E with typical open string thingies, and keep interest by changing keys. All made up then and there IIRC. The single string solos are in the 'jazz' lexicon.

(The final cut on the CD ends in heretic-like fashion on that F Maj 7 #11 with sustain. Maybe I shouldda left it alone? Too late now)...

I like this a whole lot.

joelf · 03-03-2020, 09:50 PM

Thanks, Jeff.

I feel like if you're going to play jazz there's no getting around the blues (and swing) element. You can go far afield----you're supposed to, when you find your voice and speak in it, but there ought to be references at least that indicate you know and have dug the basics.

All these people like Anthony Braxton---it's totally cool, and I'd like to get something out of it, too. But I respond more viscerally to masters who really came out of the aforementioned. Monk, Bird, Pops, Ornette knew the blues. Ahmad Jamal brought a sophistication and touch, but Night Mist Blues couldn't be mistaken for anything else. Dizzy denigrated his blues sensibility in his autobiog---but it was there, had to be.

There are players who have made lasting contributions who didn't go there, and that's cool too. Good is good and original is original. I respect honesty and self-investigation and if you don't feel a thing you don't feel it. For me, though, it's plasma. You don't have to go back to the old ways--can't and shouldn't try to stop the clock and hold back progress ('retro' people---ugh!). But the plasma will survive. It's too basic, too important not too...

**mr. beaumont** · 03-03-2020, 11:04 PM

Getting silly on non standard form "blues," hank Williams' "lovesick blues."

Yep, I'm singing.

**crusoe** · 03-04-2020, 03:36 AM

"Careless Love" and "Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out" are both great
songs. We're not limited in any way. It's just a way to keep "the old noodle" working...

**ragman1** · 03-04-2020, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Yep, I'm singing.

Cheers, Jeff, that was great, I was playing along to it!

(Keep her sassified :-)

**crusoe** · 03-04-2020, 11:33 AM

Something to glance over

**ragman1** · 03-05-2020, 09:45 AM

V-e-r-y late night effort...

**zcostilla** · 03-05-2020, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

V-e-r-y late night effort...

great rendition!

**crusoe** · 03-05-2020, 11:47 AM

Ragman1, your music is absolutly great. Here's my first draft of the chords.
Still a bit wobbely...

Jazzin' up old Blues Tunes-nobody-jpg

joelf · 03-05-2020, 05:20 PM

Gil did it:

joelf · 03-05-2020, 09:21 PM

I thought at first this belonged in the '70s thread, but I like it here, b/c it's a classic example of expanding but staying true to the blues feeling. A really sweet Jerry Ragavoy tune, some really nice jazzy voicings for the horns, an excursion into R&B/boogaloo---and through it all classic Butterfield. I love his covers and rootsy stuff also, but this shows real dimension and growth:

**ragman1** · 03-06-2020, 03:45 AM

Originally Posted by crusoe

first draft

I think it's okay. Is that Gm6/F#m6 right? With the tune, I mean..

I think it goes like this:

GM7/F#m7 - Bm6 - Am7/E9 - Am9
C6/C#o - GM7/Eb9/D9/Db9 - Em6....

Not sure after that :-)

(I take it the Bm6 is an E9 over B. It's unusual to have a major ii-V before a minor chord but it's jazz so it only makes it more interesting!)