Major I-chord vs dominant I-chord in a Blues

[lawson-stone]

Teaching is all about picking the winnable battles...

It’s so easy to get distracted. Adults in particular have a 1,000,000 questions. But you have to choose one thing and get it right. That can be really hard sometimes. But very often one thing will impact the others....

That’s why I respect Lawson stone’s approach so much. It’s clear and progress is definable. Improvisation is too hard, let me try and play these solos well. But in fact music isn’t as linear as everyone seem to think it is.... that sort of stuff helps other things... (but he’s a teacher himself. I wonder if that isn’t more important than knowing all the jazz theory.... how to learn things is more important than what is learned...)

Wouldn’t work for everyone. Different strokes.... some people need to be told, here’s five notes now go and play with them and show me what you’ve got next week. Or whatever.

Hey thanks. After maybe... 20 years of trying the chord-scale thing and just sounding lame, I decided to take a sabbatical from improvising and do what so many of my favorite players did: imitate and assimilate. I picked Raney because his basic feel seems really, really far from what I can do. Any movement towards Jimmy Raney from where I am is a move in the right direction. I also had that Aebersold set and a group on this forum wanted to do the solos, so about 3 years ago we launched. I"m the sole survivor!

You're also right... I teach a very, very complicated subject, the scholarly AND spiritual interpretation of the Bible, so it's linguistics, literary analysis, comparative literature, archaeology, historiography, history, doctrine, ethics, spirituality, everyday life, counseling, relationships... all distilled into reading a set text, a Sunday's lectionary readings. I have identified certain skills that provide strategic access to a bunch of the others. Getting them right sets students up to do the rest. I focus on those skills. Some are mechanical, they feel rote, students gripe. But 10 years later I get e-mails as they discover what the core-task approach does for their work.

I guess I unconsciously fell into that concept for improvisation. Learn to play good jazz well. Drill it, assimilate it, soak in it, love it. When I whistle for my horses every morning, I often whistle a Raney solo! The horses look at me funny. Sometimes I just skat the time of the notes. Just play with it.

I have moments when I think that deeper stuff is happening. However slow it goes, i can at least play stuff that sounds good!

[rintincop]

Doesn’t Barry Harris outline blues as

C7 | F7| C7 | C7 |
Bb7 | Bb7 | Cmaj7 F | E-7 A7 |
D-7 | G7 | Cmaj7 A7 | D-7 G7 :||

Thus the first 6 bars are like b7 blues and the final 6 bars are like Major 7th blues.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Doesn’t Barry Harris outline blues as

C7 | F7| C7 | C7 |
Bb7 | Bb7 | Fmaj7 Bb | A-7 D7|
Gmi7 | C7 | Fmaj7 D7 | G-7 C7|

Thus the first 6 bars are like b7 blues and the final 6 bars are like Major 7th blues.

He addresses a lot of variations etc., but his basic reference,.... standard, beginner version isn't that one. Outta a typical IV7 in bars 5-6...

[Vladan]

Doesn’t Barry Harris outline blues as

C7 | F7| C7 | C7 |
Bb7 | Bb7 | Fmaj7 Bb | A-7 D7|
Gmi7 | C7 | Fmaj7 D7 | G-7 C7|

Thus the first 6 bars are like b7 blues and the final 6 bars are like Major 7th blues.

Above, first 4 bars are C blues, the rest are F blues. Is that some clever Jazz thing, or typing mistake?

[rintincop]

Doesn’t Barry Harris outline blues as

C7 | F7| C7 | C7 |
Bb7 | Bb7 | Cmaj7 F | E-7 A7 |
D-7 | G7 | Cmaj7 A7 | D-7 G7 :||

Thus the first 6 bars are like b7 blues and the final 6 bars are like Major 7th blues.

Oopsy daisy! Fixed the key for the second half... Somehow I must have transposed the key in mid typing late night on an iPhone.

[rintincop]

I notice the Parker Omni book shows a lot of F blues (Au Privave)

|| Fmaj7 | G-7 C7 | Fmaj7 | C-7 F7| ... thinking for the first 4 bars

[christianm77]

I find the Omnibook changes generally (although not always) reflect Parker’s lines.

Of course with blues changes in general you can play one version of the changes over the others.

As a pointed out above, the maj7/7 clash thing is not usually so pronounced if you comp in seventhless chords such as triads, 6s or 6/9s, but in general provided you use the lug holes most things pan out fine.

The blues is a great training ground for playing over standards. It teaches one to relate most of the basic movements in the GASB to a simple functional (I IV V) template with moving chords joining one to the other.

I’m not sure this is always emphasised enough.

Here’s a nice variation

F6 | Bb7 | F6 | F7 |
Bb7 | Bbm6 | F/A | Abo7 |
Gm7 | C7 | F/A Abo7 | Gm7 C7

[ragman1]

Came across this. Interesting, sounds like an 8 bar blues but it's a 12-bar. I thought it was some kind of unusual progression but no, it's very straightforward. Feels like a sort of audio illusion. At least, I hear it that way. One reason is, it's not normally done like this. Generally it's just a 3-chord trick with the chords in the usual places.

[Reg]

Lots of bop blues use maj. They are blues tunes with a bridge, or at least they can be. Another 12 bar by Parker... I only remember because was called last night... Barbados... the I chord has a Ima9 V7sus feel. Where did the Blue notes come from.... somehow I don't think they developed from Dominant chords.

[wolflen]

Reg..Where did the Blue notes come from.... somehow I don't think they developed from Dominant chords.

We can guess for days how the blues evolved...from a vocal expression to an instrument--a one chord variation..three or more chords..and of course jazz flavored..

the very early blues players most likely didnt think of themselves as blues players
and their playing was like anyone who just learned one chord at a time like many of us did
they experimented and found "wrong" notes that sounded good..I dont think there was theory involved
I remember learning my first few blues and wondered how to get "that" sound..the supposed easy to play music had some very demanding ways about it

I may teach some "kids"..they say.."hey..I want to learn to play like Jimi Hendrix or Stevie Ray.." I usually ask them if they know who Albert King is..

[Reg]

Yea I loved Albert... wasn't he a lefty also.

[TOMMO]

the very early blues players most likely didnt think of themselves as blues players

They would call themselves "musicianers" and play whatever their audiences fancied to listen to. The idea of them being strict blues players came partly through the record companies of the time who only let them record blues tunes (with a very very few exceptions). Even the folklorists acted as a filter of their repertoire being only interested in specific songs and styles.

[christianm77]

Reg..Where did the Blue notes come from.... somehow I don't think they developed from Dominant chords.

We can guess for days how the blues evolved...from a vocal expression to an instrument--a one chord variation..three or more chords..and of course jazz flavored..

the very early blues players most likely didnt think of themselves as blues players
and their playing was like anyone who just learned one chord at a time like many of us did
they experimented and found "wrong" notes that sounded good..I dont think there was theory involved
I remember learning my first few blues and wondered how to get "that" sound..the supposed easy to play music had some very demanding ways about it

I may teach some "kids"..they say.."hey..I want to learn to play like Jimi Hendrix or Stevie Ray.." I usually ask them if they know who Albert King is..

Again I think melodic ornamentation - vocal nuance. -came first and harmony adapted to follow it.

And of course the jazz version of blue notes is kind of the equal tempered approximation...

[Vladan]

Came across this. Interesting, sounds like an 8 bar blues but it's a 12-bar. I thought it was some kind of unusual progression but no, it's very straightforward. Feels like a sort of audio illusion. At least, I hear it that way. One reason is, it's not normally done like this. Generally it's just a 3-chord trick with the chords in the usual places.

It sounded straight 12 bars to me.
Regarding chords though. I do not know, probably there is only 3, but I heard it as (at least) illusion of, or implied "Parker changes". If I was to play this one, I'd definitely use some "ii V"s, dims ("b9"s, if you prefer it that way) and turnaround.

[ragman1]

It sounded straight 12 bars to me.
Regarding chords though. I do not know, probably there is only 3, but I heard it as (at least) illusion of, or implied "Parker changes". If I was to play this one, I'd definitely use some "ii V"s, dims ("b9"s, if you prefer it that way) and turnaround.

Like I said, it's normally done as a 3 chord trick (or 4 if you sneak in a G7). This is the Woody Guthrie version and there are lots more by Doc Watson and others. It's also a 16 bar blues, not a 12.

I think attributing the Parker changes to a tune like this is probably a bit steep. It's a simple country blues. Extending the middle bars by using the cycle of dominants was standard practice. Jazz took it from them, not the other way round.

I think you'd find, if you played it with b9 or other sophisticated sounds, that you'd really gone too far away from the original blues feeling. Nothing to stop anyone from doing it, of course, but I wouldn't personally.

But the point was that the ordinary version seems to be unrushed, the chords falling simply where they should. The Broonzy version feels short because it is, it's been reduced from 16 bars to 12.

The way Broonzy is doing it is more like a regular jazz blues; Parker changes are more chromatic. All these 12-bar formats have their roots in the simple 3 chords but it doesn't necessarily mean that they can be substituted for each other.

This tune doesn't work for Parker's chromatic bit, the rest of the time it's okay :-)

[Vladan]

Like I said, it's normally done as a 3 chord trick ...

I thought Jazz Blues and Parker blues were one same thing. There I learned something new.
Seems I was hearing Jazz blues in Broonzy,

- Regarding that Jazz and Parker took it from Blues: That was exactly the point of my post.
- Regarding all various versions you mention and how it is normally done: Whatever. The only version I know is the one by Beoonzy, I first learned about it from your post.

[ragman1]

I thought Jazz Blues and Parker blues were one same thing. There I learned something new.
Seems I was hearing Jazz blues in Broonzy,

Parker isn't the same as standard jazz blues. But, yes, what Broonzy was playing is more like jazz blues. There are differences. I'm sure you can look it up rather than me spending time writing it all out here!

- Regarding that Jazz and Parker took it from Blues: That was exactly the point of my post.
- Regarding all various versions you mention and how it is normally done: Whatever. The only version I know is the one by Beoonzy, I first learned about it from your post.

Okay. The first recorded version was this one. But, like most of these songs, god knows where it first came from. They evolve, get passed down. Likewise the forms (chord progressions) also evolve. They tend either to have slight variations or get filled out with all kinds of substitutions. The regular jazz blues is a variation of the 3 chord trick and what Parker did was a variation of that... and so on ad infinitum.

[ragman1]

I like this one. It's happy music. No one can say it's a white blues. Listen to Gatemouth play that solo! Lovely player.

[TOMMO]

Thanks for that ragman - enjoyed it a lot!

[ragman1]

Thanks, Tommo. I don't want to be a nuisance here but I like fooling around with this stuff. Here's a version I just did. I think it's fairly original. Loses some of the raw feel, of course. It's re-harmed like this.

G6 - Bm7 - Em7 - G9
CM7 - C#o - Bm7 - E7
Am7 - Ab7 - G6/E7#9 - Eb7#9/D7#9

[ragman1]

Anyway, we better return to sobriety... it's a jazz forum :-)

[rintincop]

I like this Maj7 for Blues

BLUES:
Fmaj7 | C7sus | Fmaj7 | F7 |
Bbmaj7 | Eb7 | Fmaj7 | Abdim |
G-7 | C7 | F Ab7 | Dbmaj7 Gb7 :||

And go the opposite way with RhythmChanges, all Dom 7ths with some Alts.

RHYTHM CHANGES:
Bb7 G7 | C7 F7 | Bb7 G7 | C7 F7|
Bb7 Bb7#9/D | Eb7 Edim | Bb/F G7 | C7 F7 :||

Maj7 BRIDGE:
Dmaj7 | Dmaj7 Ab7 | Gmaj7| Gmaj7 Db7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 Gb7 | Fmaj7 | Fmaj7 B7 ||

[TOMMO]

Anyway, we better return to sobriety... it's a jazz forum :-)

...and the blues is at the heart of jazz. Liked your short clip . swinging!

[wolflen]

Yea I loved Albert... wasn't he a lefty also.

yeppers...played a flying V style ax..upsidedown with the bass strings on top..and tuned low so he could get those two note bends

He used my fender twin amp for a gig once ..very nice man..met him several times when he would play in Los Angeles..

his tune Cold Feet is still my fave..

[John A.]

On the other hand if you consider a less conventional blues tune, All Blues. 6/4 time, in minor, does not always stay with conventional blues rhythms and melody (although they are used at times mixed in with a more modal style), no lyrics. Yet it's easily heard as a blues tune.

The reason I hear it as blues I think is it starts with 4 bars of tonic, followed by subdominant in exactly the 5th bar (very decisive moment to me). Then reaching dominant in the last 4 bars (and bVI7 as commonly done in minor) to cycle back to tonic. I don't know if I could hear this tune as blues if these weren't all true.

I don't think there's any question that it's a blues. Also, it's not in minor. It's all Dom7's (with major thirds). But it It does play up the inherent major/minor ambiguity in all blues (get it?) forms because in bars 5-6 the bass part stays in G while the other parts play C7 (making it sound like both Gmin and C7 simultaneously), and because Bars 10-11 are 7#9 chords (#9 = min3).

John