Harmonizing scales

[ragman1]

[QUOTE=grahambop;989358]

In the video as I recall he said Fm7 = Ab6? Not Cm7.

Sorry, yes. But it's the same thing. If it's in Eb then Fm is the ii chord. I thought, on the scale, the ii chord was a dim. That's what your chart shows.

I am sorry if I wasn’t able to communicate the basic concept to you, I honestly don’t think I can do anything further

You have communicated it, very well, and I'm grateful, thanks.

[christianm77]

Duh yes Fm7 not Cm7 = Ab6

[grahambop]

[QUOTE=ragman1;989362]

Sorry, yes. But it's the same thing. If it's in Eb then Fm is the ii chord. I thought, on the scale, the ii chord was a dim. That's what your chart shows.



You have communicated it, very well, and I'm grateful, thanks.

Yes so while (and only while) the chord is Fm7, you play chords from the relevant 6/dim scale FOR THAT Fm7 CHORD, which is the Ab6/dim scale.

You DON’T play the second chord of Eb6/dim scale just because the key is Eb.

Each chord usually takes a different 6/dim scale. They don’t all follow the same 6/dim scale that the key uses.

Now I have said it 1001 times.

[joe2758]

Assuming you know most the substitutions (4 uses for minor 6, 3 uses for major 6 at least) and can play those scales in drop 3 and drop 2 easily on all string sets. Let's even assume you can borrow masterfully to suit your own taste.

In Alan's book alone you're missing Long-short, expand and contract, four note chords in tenths, Borrowing from the diminished scale, surrounding, Monk Moves, major to minor to minor with the 6th in the bass (less complicated than it sounds), Home and away movements, dominant 7 dimished scale, b5 diminished scale, the 3 diminished chords and their implications

Other concepts include MAJOR SCALE CYCLING (not 6th dim), using related dominants (you got hung up on no vanilla dominant in the 6th dim scale for some reason), whole tones, The blues/rhythm move Alan taught me in E-mail (and taught in the Howard Reese workshop I went to)

You're getting hung up on a small part of what he teaches (and to be honest, you're not really getting that yet) and calling it an incomplete theory

[ragman1]

Each chord usually takes a different 6/dim scale. They don’t all follow the same 6/dim scale that the key uses.

Now I have said it 1001 times.

Oh, god, have you? Sorry. Well, even worse, then :-)

[ragman1]

You're getting hung up on a small part of what he teaches (and to be honest, you're not really getting that yet) and calling it an incomplete theory

You might be right :-)

[cosmic gumbo]

You wordy Brit scribes must think you owe it to Shakespeare to write as many words before you die to prove you have a worthy thought. Seemed like a good thread to post that observation. Turn everything into a boring essay. Don't have to defend every idea about an artform with no rules. Jazz is not proper, so get over it. :-)

[christianm77]

You wordy Brit scribes must think you owe it to Shakespeare to write as many words before you die to prove you have a worthy thought. Seemed like a good thread to post that observation. Turn everything into a boring essay. Don't have to defend every idea about an artform with no rules. Jazz is not proper, so get over it. :-)

Bollocks

[grahambop]

yeah let’s stick to discussing pickups and strings all day.

[joe2758]

yeah, bollocks!

[A. Kingstone]

Gonads

[christianm77]

Arse

[mr. beaumont]

And people think jazz is boring.

[ragman1]

You wordy Brit scribes must think you owe it to Shakespeare to write as many words before you die to prove you have a worthy thought. Seemed like a good thread to post that observation. Turn everything into a boring essay. Don't have to defend every idea about an artform with no rules. Jazz is not proper, so get over it. :-)

Partly my doing, cosmic, because I asked about Barry Harris' ideas. But it's just the last two pages and certainly not limited to Brits.

Incidentally, since your PMs are turned off, how's your health? Without wishing to be indelicate.

[ragman1]

As for the rest of you -

After that bombardment I thought I'd let the brain absorb the info for a while. Always works.

Came up with a thought or two - not that I want to bore anybody - and an experiment.

Basically the thoughts were that the main benefit of all this is obviously in chord melody, not that I do a lot of that. I prefer playing notes over chords. I prefer it, it suits me.

It strikes me that, in many ways, this is very similar to the way of filling out, say, a couple of bars of the same chord with inversions and dim chords, like G//Am/Bbo - G/B for 2 bars of G. It's more complex than that, or can be made more complex.

So I did an experiment, which was interesting. I put down the progression

Am7/D7 - Gm7/C7 - FM7

and then reharmed it as

C6/Ebo - Bb6/Dbo - F6

It's not a vast reharm of chord movements, just to see what flavours the use of 6 and dim chords gave to it soloing-wise.

I played something diatonic over the first Am7/D7 one, keeping to the chords, and then saw how that sounded over the reharm. Fitted nicely.

Then I put in some usual b9 and alt subs over the first Am7/D7 one and they fitted nicely too.

Then I played over the reharm, keeping to those chords, and did the same again. Also with subs like using dim runs and harmonic minors over the dims and usual stuff over the 6s (not deserting M7 sounds either). Also subbing the 4 possible dominant chords for each dim.

Obviously all that fitted, but then I played them all back over the first Am7/D7 progression. And they all fitted very nicely too.

So basically these reharms and substitutions work together. Perhaps not unsurprisingly, I don't know. There's also all the stuff that Joe listed out that I haven't done yet.

If anyone has any thoughts/insights into single-note playing that would be interesting.

[A. Kingstone]

How about:

Am7/D7 - Gm7/C7 - FM7

and then reharmed it as

C6o/Ebm6o - Bb6o/Dbm6o - F6o

[ragman1]

How about:

Am7/D7 - Gm7/C7 - FM7

and then reharmed it as

C6o/Ebm6o - Bb6o/Dbm6o - F6o

You're confusing me. Why introduce yet another reharm? I was testing notes that work for the Am7/D7 thing against the simple reharm I did.

Why have you turned all the maj6s into diminished chords? Diminisheds instead of majors? Since when did a tune end on a diminished chord?

Or are you saying a dim6 (6o) is a chord? If it is, it's new to me!

[pcjazz]

You're confusing me. Why introduce yet another reharm? I was testing notes that work for the Am7/D7 thing against the simple reharm I did.

Why have you turned all the maj6s into diminished chords? Diminisheds instead of majors? Since when did a tune end on a diminished chord?

Or are you saying a dim6 (6o) is a chord? If it is, it's new to me!

Chord scales, not chords. See above.

[A. Kingstone]

C6o= C Sixth Diminished Harmonized 8 note scale

Ebm6o - Eb Minor Sixth Diminished Harmonized 8 note scale

[grahambop]

See post no. 171 - the term C6o (or C6dim) means the C maj sixth diminished scale of chords, exactly as illustrated in that post.

For min6dim scale, just flat the third, no other difference.

[ragman1]

We've had this before and I don't think I'm that dumb, to be honest. When I talked about note-scales you said 'No, chord scales'. Now I'm talking about a chord reharm and you're saying 'No, we're talking about note scales'!

This confusion isn't my fault. All I did was reharm (a la BH idea of inversions + dim chords) the simple progression Am-D7-Gm-C7-F. I played standard lines over both sets of chords and found that everything I did fitted both very well.

So are you telling me now that I should be using different scales? I'm NOT talking about chord melody-type playing. I said that. I'm talking about single-note lines.

Please make it clear whether you're talking about chord voicings or single notes when you say 'scales'!!!

[grahambop]

We are all talking about scales of chords. Not single-note scales.

See post 171. That is what we are talking about.

You are the one who has started talking about single-note scales. That is a different subject. BH has a different system for that.

[ragman1]

We are all talking about scales of chords. Not single-note scales.

See post 171. That is what we are talking about.

You are the one who has started talking about single-note scales. That is a different subject. BH has a different system for that.

Correct, and my post tonight was about - and only about - single note playing. Not my fault. What post were you all answering?

At the end of that post, which I admit was quite long, I asked:

'If anyone has any thoughts/insights into single-note playing that would be interesting.'

That still applies, if anyone can answer it. There's precious little on the net as far as I can see. It's all about the usual 6dim chord scale. In fact, all that has become tediously repetitive. It's as though that's all they know and as far as they've got.

Do you know there's not one video that I've seen where they discuss 'the knowledge' and then amply demonstrate it in a convincing manner. The guy who does the 'Things I have learned' vids got to Lesson 23 and did his usual crawl around the scales, etc, without any attempt at performance. When someone asked 'Can you play it' he said - after years of studying with BH - 'No, I wasn't at that class'.

You what? It's laughable. The tune? ATTYA. Good god.

[ragman1]

Graham -

Sorry, I'm not having a go at you. I just don't like phonies who want to be big nobs on the internet. You, I respect. You're accurate, helpful, and come up with the goods. You've done me proud on several occasions. And you're no phony. I don't forget this one, when you banged out lovely bebop. I know you weren't playing by rote, it's too long and fluent for that. And I can't think of anyone else here I've seen do it with equal ease.

So there. Bollox, as they say

Next page...

[ragman1]

Damn, something's happened to that recording. Have you got the original? You better repost it, it's not something that should be lost.

There's also your SoundCloud stuff. Blue Bossa's not a one-off.