Harmonizing scales

[ragman1]

You always do what you want (or what sounds right to you) when playing, or you should.

I do, always. It's got to pass my test or it's dumped!

When you practice, you don't. That's why practice is a bore but we have to do it to learn new stuff.

Yes, okay.

Modern day jazz theory is pretty limited in some applications, focusses towards a certain set of sounds. But do you hear it as strange?

Occasionally, yes, because it is strange. It's not just good jazz with the wrong notes in the right places, etc, it's weird and over the top. Some of Kreisberg's stuff is like that. And I like Kreisberg.

Barry didn't invent this stuff

Oh, I know! That's why... don't get me started :-)

(At least that's the way it would be if I could actually do it on guitar. I've kind of given up.)

I wondered why you were silent. I think we've got to find what's right for us. If we're any good it'll show.

[grahambop]

How fast do you do it normally? As a backing, that is.



Such as? I'm all for unusual combinations :-)

Depends, I don’t use a stopwatch! just quicker and easier than before.

Re. borrowing try it for yourself?

I think there were sounds like that in Joe’s video posted earlier in this thread.

[ragman1]

Depends, I don’t use a stopwatch! just quicker and easier than before.

Re. borrowing try it for yourself?

I think there were sounds like that in Joe’s video posted earlier in this thread.

Sorry, I'm sure you're busy. I'm not trying to grill you.

[joe2758]

wish i could be more help; i'm not busy at all lol. I like your playing, rags, would love to see what you could do with the stuff after some work. esp, as christian said, "And it no longer sounds old timey because all the sounds are in there via borrowing and so on. And you havemore flexibility because you are no longer thinking in grips."

[joe2758]

by the way rags, you should record more of your stuff via video...I can't hear the sound cloud ones at work

[grahambop]

Sorry, I'm sure you're busy. I'm not trying to grill you.

no problem, you can get some idea of the borrowing stuff here. I think some of it works, some not so well, but either way it gives lots of possible avenues to investigate, I think it’s a neat principle.

[grahambop]

OK I had a little go at the borrowing stuff, to see if I could make it sound completely different from the usual chords. Say you were playing chordal movements over a vamp in C minor, in Barry Harris terms you could play some standard Eb6/dim stuff like this:

x3534x
x5646x
x6858x
x.10.10.8.11.x

OK now I do them again, but this time I modify each chord by borrowing any notes I like, from above or below, in any voice, from the adjacent Eb6/dim chords. Now I can get something like this:

x3543x
x5644x
x6876x
x.10.10.8.9.x

which is totally different, now it sounds more like Allan Holdsworth than Barry.

I might even use this occasionally if I was playing 'Invitation', sounds kinda cool if you play that sequence and end it with a Cmin69, i.e. x6778x .

[ragman1]

by the way rags, you should record more of your stuff via video...I can't hear the sound cloud ones at work

Heh heh :-)

Actually I thought the videos lacked volume whereas the Soundcloud ones were loud enough. Oh, well.

wish i could be more help

You could. I can't really see/understand the dissonant stuff on your vid. You could clarify that, if you like.

[ragman1]

Graham -

I'm playing it. The first one I get. That x6858x voicing is very hard to grab but it sounds nice.

The second one puts it in C harm, or Cm/M7... it might depend on the melody, would you say?

But I see the point. Haven't done the video yet.

[grahambop]

Graham -

I'm playing it. The first one I get. That x6858x voicing is very hard to grab but it sounds nice.

The second one puts it in C harm, or Cm/M7... it might depend on the melody, would you say?

But I see the point. Haven't done the video yet.

You can change that tricky voicing to maj7 if you like, I usually do, it is one of the few 6th inversions that is a bit of a stretch.

I didn’t even think about what the second group of chords are, the aim was just to see what sounds I could get by borrowing, that might be useable. You could comp with them I think, maybe not so much in a restaurant ‘standards’ gig, but if you wanted to get a more ‘contemporary’ vibe maybe.

[ragman1]

You can change that tricky voicing to maj7 if you like, I usually do, it is one of the few 6th inversions that is a bit of a stretch.

I didn’t even think about what the second group of chords are, the aim was just to see what sounds I could get by borrowing, that might be useable. You could comp with them I think, maybe not so much in a restaurant ‘standards’ gig, but if you wanted to get a more ‘contemporary’ vibe maybe.

Yes, I was just playing the hard chord as a 3-note chord. x685xx. Or xx1313.

I understand, the second group was an example of how sounds can be changed. I've got it.

Still haven't looked at the video yet; I will.

[ragman1]

Seen it. He was making some very nice sounds, no question. But it does seem as though one has to almost start learning the whole music thing all over again!

He did admit he'd find doing this very hard on a bandstand but, noodling in his room, the possibilities were limitless.

There's a link in that vid on YT to this:

ii_V_Barry_Harris.tif - Google Drive

Which is quite interesting. I don't understand why the ii chord (Cm7) is now a (maj)6 inversion. If we're harmonising the Bb scale shouldn't the ii chord be a diminished and the iii chord be a 6?

One could say BH now goes back to classic theory and subs the ii for the IV. Why, I don't know. But the problem there is that, in the 6dim scale, the 4 chord is also a diminished! Don't get this. Seems to me that every time the BH thing comes up against classic theory the player just 'changes' it. Which is stupid. really. Either do the new thing or don't. If it falls down in practice why do it at all?

But the borrowing idea seems clear. We take notes from the two neighbouring dim chords either side of the 6 being played. That can produce a dissonance, or not, but good sounds nevertheless.

Or maybe you 'borrow' any note you like from anywhere - which is nonsense, of course. Probably depends on the interpreter.

[ragman1]

Here's something from Jens Larsen. Seems very fair to me. At 16.28.

It seems every demo vid translates it differently, which means they either don't understand it or they can't do it. They all do the basic thing easily - 6dim scale produces 6 and dim chords - but then it gets fuzzy and they all start doing their own thing. Which, in terms of musical organisation, is chaos.

It's not 'simpler than classic theory', as is sometimes said, it's unclear and unstructured. It just seems simpler because there are only two kinds of chord. But that is naive, like trying to write Shakespeare with a 12 letter alphabet instead of 26 or something.

I expect to be told 'If you don't like it, shove off. No one's forcing you', etc. But that's to miss the point. This stuff is extant and needs unbiased examination. In my view anyway.

We're told that Wes used BH ideas but, according to some, BH himself said 'Wes never used it' - and they played together on some recordings. We're also told that Bach used it... no comment :-)

You don't have to join in with this, by the way, no one's forcing you

[grahambop]

I think you misunderstand the application. That google drive doc shows which BH 6/dim scale is appropriate for each chord.

Say the first three chords on that doc are the first 3 chords of Autumn Leaves, you could play Eb6/dim over the Cm, Gbmin6/dim over the F7, and Bb6/dim over the Bb. You might only have time to fit two or three chords from each scale over each one, depending on the tempo, but you can do it. The point is to create harmonic movement over each chord. So you change the BH scale accordingly. It is like playing lines made up of chords, over each of the original chords. That’s how you get more movement.

You don’t typically just play only Bb6/dim over the whole 2-5-1 just because it’s resolving to Bb.

So to create more movement you can do this:

Over Cmaj chords play C6/dim scale
Over Cmin chords play Eb6/dim scale (or Cmin6/dim scale)
Over C7 chords play Gmin6/dim
Over C7 altered chords play Dbmin6/dim scale
Over Cm7b5 chords play Ebmin6/dim scale

[christianm77]

Oh that’s what I do

[ragman1]

Graham -

You misunderstand the application. That google drive doc shows which BH 6/dim scale is appropriate for each chord.

Well, that's not surprising. The doc shows a series of block chords as subs for Cm7-F7-BM7. Nothing about scales.

Say the first three chords on that doc are the first 3 chords of Autumn Leaves, you could play Eb6/dim over the Cm, Gbmin6/dim over the F7, and Bb6/dim over the Bb

.

Okay, decent subs.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did you see my question in the previous post? Here:

I don't understand why the ii chord (Cm7) is now a (maj)6 inversion. If we're harmonising the Bb scale shouldn't the ii chord be a diminished and the iii chord be a 6? One could say BH now goes back to classic theory and subs the ii for the IV. Why, I don't know. But the problem there is that, in the 6dim scale, the 4 chord is also a diminished! Don't get this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

You might only have time to fit two or three chords from each scale over each one, depending on the tempo, but you can do it. The point is to create harmonic movement over each chord

Sorry, I'm being slow. I don't see where scales come into it, I only see chord subs. Where are you getting scales from? Are you saying the chord sub Gbm6 implies a scale? How? What? What's a Gbm6 scale? If I saw that normally I'd play Gb mel minor.

Over Cmaj chords play C6/dim scale

Sorry to put it this way, but is that the same as C maj bebop?

Over Cmin chords play Eb6/dim scale (or Cmin6/dim scale)

Normally, if the tune was in Eb the Cm would need a Phrygian treatment. If in Bb, then a Cm6 would do it, either C Dorian or mel m. The difference in sound between those two notes is immense. The natural A note over a Cm in Eb is just wrong altogether. Even if Christian doesn't think so :-)

Over C7 chords play Gmin6/dim

Same thing, G Dorian or mel m. Or G dim.

Over C7 altered chords play Dbmin6/dim scale

Normally, Db mel m. So are you just saying it's the same but with an extra note? That's the dom bebop idea anyway, isn't it?

Over Cm7b5 chords play Ebmin6/dim scale

Exactly, the minor off the 3rd. With the extra note, presumably.

But this is exactly what I do anyway, and have been doing for years. It's on all my soundclips. And there are chromatic passing notes in there anyway. Whether they're the 'right ones' I have no idea. Whatever sounds okay at the time.

See this answer to someone who asked what I was playing to something (long before all this came up):

October 2019 - You Don't Know What Love Is

[ragman1]

Oh that’s what I do

Barry!

[ragman1]

I see I've been 'killed'. Oh dear. True though, what I said. Someone's being very vigilant. See how scared we are?

[christianm77]

I see I've been 'killed'. Oh dear. True though, what I said. Someone's being very vigilant. See how scared we are?

Eh?

[grahambop]

Ragman, in this context the ‘scale’ is a ‘scale’ made up of chords, I.e. alternating 6th and dim chords (or min 6th and dim).

Honestly it is really difficult to explain this to someone who doesn’t know what the 6th/dim scales actually consist of.

Here is an example (I hope Alan Kingstone will forgive me for extracting this from his book, I can’t think how else to do it).

[ragman1]

Graham -

Oh, you mean a scale of chords. Right, okay.

I do know what they consist of. As your picture says. But you also said there were different ideas for lines. Described elsewhere as for 'horns' as opposed to piano, presumably.

But did you see my question before? I think that was valid. It arose from the vid guy saying 'BH treats the Cm7 (ii of Bb) as an Ab6'.

'I don't understand why the ii chord (Cm7) is now a (maj)6 inversion. If we're harmonising the Bb scale shouldn't the ii chord be a diminished and the iii chord be a 6? One could say BH now goes back to classic theory and subs the ii for the IV. Why, I don't know. But the problem there is that, in the 6dim scale, the 4 chord is also a diminished! Don't get this.'

[christianm77]

Christian -






I posted a comment likening criticism of peoples' musical theories to a criticism of religious belief. With all its dire consequences. It's been removed. Someone's hanging on my every word.

I don’t think it was the musical theories side of it that got it removed.

Though I would rather they didn’t I can see why.

[christianm77]

Graham -

Oh, you mean a scale of chords. Right, okay.

I do know what they consist of. As your picture says. But you also said there were different ideas for lines. Described elsewhere as for 'horns' as opposed to piano, presumably.

But did you see my question before? I think that was valid. It arose from the vid guy saying 'BH treats the Cm7 (ii of Bb) as an Ab6'.

'I don't understand why the ii chord (Cm7) is now a (maj)6 inversion. If we're harmonising the Bb scale shouldn't the ii chord be a diminished and the iii chord be a 6? One could say BH now goes back to classic theory and subs the ii for the IV. Why, I don't know. But the problem there is that, in the 6dim scale, the 4 chord is also a diminished! Don't get this.'

It’s just less shit to learn. It’s the same thing so we just to the conversion in your head.

Call it Cm7 if you like and convert Ab6. Doesn’t actually matter, although most of us would prefer to think of the I chord as whatever it is.

Same with calling an Am7b5 a Cm6

That way you have like 2 main scales (4 total) instead of one for every chord colour with a load of redundant stuff that’s repeated.

[ragman1]

Christian -

ragman1
I see I've been 'killed'. Oh dear. True though, what I said. Someone's being very vigilant. See how scared we are?

Eh?

I posted a comment likening criticism of peoples' musical theories to a criticism of religious belief. With all its dire consequences. It's been removed. Someone's hanging on my every word.

Doesn't really matter, although censorship isn't pleasant.

[grahambop]

Graham -

Oh, you mean a scale of chords. Right, okay.

I do know what they consist of. As your picture says. But you also said there were different ideas for lines. Described elsewhere as for 'horns' as opposed to piano, presumably.

But did you see my question before? I think that was valid. It arose from the vid guy saying 'BH treats the Cm7 (ii of Bb) as an Ab6'.

'I don't understand why the ii chord (Cm7) is now a (maj)6 inversion. If we're harmonising the Bb scale shouldn't the ii chord be a diminished and the iii chord be a 6? One could say BH now goes back to classic theory and subs the ii for the IV. Why, I don't know. But the problem there is that, in the 6dim scale, the 4 chord is also a diminished! Don't get this.'

I haven’t a clue what you’re on about by now, sorry.

In the video as I recall he said Fm7 = Ab6? Not Cm7.

Either way, if the chord is Cm7 you don’t play Bb6/dim on it. You play the appropriate BH 6/dim scale for Cm which would be Eb6/dim. You don’t play a dim chord just because dim is second chord of Bb/dim. On each chord you use the 6/dim scale which translates for each chord. I feel like I’ve said this 1000 times now.

I think in all my posts in this thread I have given as much explanation as I can.

I am sorry if I wasn’t able to communicate the basic concept to you, I honestly don’t think I can do anything further.