-
You insist that you know everything and nothing at the same time. "It makes no sense",.... but you understand it . You demand that someone on the forum explain it , not an outside link . Not actual music played by Wes Montgomery , Barry Harris etc. etc. just feels like trolling honestly.
Originally Posted by ragman1
Barry Harris basically has laid out how HE likes to teach people to emulate the thing that Wes and tons of other jazz musicians have been doing for decades . You don't like thinking about it that way and think it's too contrived. The end. Period.
There's nothing else to discuss. His method is for his own use to teach people who are INTERESTED in learning from HIM. It doesn't have anything to do with justifying himself to other people who AREN'T interested or disagree. You're wasting everybody's time. No one's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to except something you don't care for.
No. I'm not going to stop and justify someone else's personal methodology or philosophy to you , and I don't think anyone else should either. Take it or leave it. You don't have to like everything and accept every idea, but demanding proofs from everyone repeatedly after already starting you're refusal of the ideas is just textbook trolling. Enough.
-
11-14-2019 01:58 PM
-
As for what to do with it, here's what I do with it. If I used standard block 7th chords through the whole thing (like when beginners start) It would sound a 100% different. I couldn't develop my personal artistic voice doing things that way.
-
I'm not trolling, Matt. You're attacking me, which is defensive. I'd have expected better of you. At least the others have made an effort. Just say you can't, or don't want to, explain it, I'll accept that. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
-
Right, I see what you're doing. Some of it is dissonant. Is that dissonance the result of applying the BH ideas or just the way you like to play it? I'm not saying I don't like it, btw. Originally Posted by joe2758
-
Yeah the dissonance is how i chose to utilize BH stuff. It can be super vanilla if you'd like Originally Posted by ragman1
-
Like.... Originally Posted by ragman1
Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
-
Ragman, you’re free to find nothing useful in it, I don’t mind at all. You asked for some explanations. My 2 posts just above say what I like about it. Essentially it is the simplicity of the concept, which can nevertheless be opened out into a huge range of possibilities.
By the way if you want dominant sounds, you can play:
dim chords (obviously) (for 7b9)
min6 dim scale on the 5th (for unaltered dominant, i.e. Dom 9)
min6 dim scale on the flat 2 (for altered dominant i.e. 7#5b9)
Barry also has Dom7/dim and Dom7b5/dim scales, but I don’t use them much, the ones above are enough for me.
People often dismiss Barry’s stuff for some reason. I must admit I am a sceptical person and I was inclined to do the same, until I started applying it to actual tunes, chord solos, comping, solo guitar harmonisations etc. Then it really started to make sense.
Also I don’t regard BH stuff as replacing what I already knew. But it adds more tools to the toolbox as it were.
-
The title is a bit negative but this is also interesting. Another 3 pages... :-)
Barry Harris, interesting, but...
-
Another thing I got from it: play Barry’s 6/dim stuff on the bottom 4 strings, omitting the 5th string, and you’ve got all the ‘freddie green’ type chords and movement you’ll ever need. Another handy application, I could never do that stuff so easily before.
-
Never said that. On the contrary, I'm asking about it! Originally Posted by grahambop
I do that already, or something very like it. Sometimes, rather than force an extra note, I just start a semitone in.By the way if you want dominant sounds, you can play:
dim chords (obviously) (for 7b9)
min6 dim scale on the 5th (for unaltered dominant, i.e. Dom 9)
min6 dim scale on the flat 2 (for altered dominant i.e. 7#5b9)
Fair enough. Maybe I'm resisting spending a long time re-learning stuff, which is already difficult enough, to find it hasn't really improved things that much. That's possible.People often dismiss Barry’s stuff for some reason. I must admit I am a sceptical person and I was inclined to do the same, until I started applying it to actual tunes, chord solos, comping, solo guitar harmonisations etc. Then it really started to make sense.
.Also I don’t regard BH stuff as replacing what I already knew. But it adds more tools to the toolbox as it were
Quite, I understand that.
-
Okay, that sounds realistic and not too difficult. I'm good at my shells :-) Originally Posted by grahambop
If you have time, have you got a short example of that to play? Say 8 or 16 bars? Maybe first the standard way, then the subs. Just the chord names should do it.
If I had just one example to play it might lead to instant conversion, who knows? As you know, I much prefer practical examples rather than a million words and technical terms.
-
Yes we’ve had a few BH threads over the years, I have probably read them all before! Originally Posted by ragman1
By the way to avoid confusion, there are really 2 BH systems. One is for improvising single-note bebop solos, it is built around major and dominant scales with various half-step rules etc. The other is the 6/dim scales for harmony. (Although I think he does use them a bit for soloing lines too).
The ‘things I learned from BH’ YouTube channel is a great overview of both of them.
-
I should have some pdfs of stuff like this which I have posted before, I will see what I can find. Originally Posted by ragman1
-
So you have like 4 dominant function chords cos the dim7s all sub in for V7b9 Originally Posted by ragman1
No subdominant tho.
-
Here's something with shell chords for ATTYA. It's a bit busy, but I think the idea was to create as much movement between the chords as possible. The chord names given are the standard ones but all the chord shapes used are essentially BH 6th/Dim inversions (plus a few dom 7ths here and there I think).
-
Like an elephant with 4 trunks instead of one. Oh, great. Originally Posted by christianm77
But no tusks.
Weird elephant.
But I don't want a b9 sound all the time... too sweet by half. So I suppose this is where the 'do what you want' bit comes in. I mean, you can see why this stuff is strange, can't you?
-
Brilliant. Again. Originally Posted by grahambop
I've glanced at it quickly (it'll have to wait properly till tomorrow) but I can see an Fm7, Go, Ab6, Ab/C in the first bar. Then Bbm7, Co, Db6, Bbm7 in the second. Easy to play.
Now I'm getting it. I'll have it sorted 'ere long. Maybe give you a blast. It's a good example too, lots of keys.
Thank you, Graham. One day you can borrow my Ferrari :-)
when I get one
-
This is an objection people always seem to make. But in practice it actually makes things simpler. Originally Posted by ragman1
i.e.
Ab6 = Ab = Fm
Abm6 = Abm = Db7 = G7alt = Fm7b5
So just by learning the Ab maj6/dim and Ab min6/dim scale of chords you can play fluid chord movements over all these contexts. Sure it’s a bit slow to figure out at first, but when you start applying these for real on actual tunes you start to associate the various 6/dim chord scale shapes with the different contexts without thinking much. So you don’t actually think ‘I must convert Fm into Ab6’ while you’re playing, you just know the 6/dim scale that goes with that chord type and where it lies on the fingerboard.
In the same way as an experienced player can play single-note lines over chord changes without much thought, this system eventually gets you to play ‘lines’ made up of chordal movements, but without having to learn a ton of different chord types and inversions.
But of course it takes some work up-front. Alan Kingstone’s book is where I learned the 6/dim scales from, it makes the process a lot quicker if you have a clear set of the most useful scale shapes to work from.Last edited by grahambop; 11-14-2019 at 07:25 PM.
-
cool, so you see that first bar is actually just inversions of Ab6 and G dim chords, that’s all they are (which is the Ab6/dim scale). Originally Posted by ragman1
So an experienced BH person can run that lot up an Fm chord like a ferret going up a drainpipe, without even having to think about it. And then it’s all Db6/dim on the second bar, and so on.
-
Phwoar Originally Posted by grahambop
I'm getting it. Good for comping.
Let's get this done first then maybe we can do the lines bit. One thing at a time :-)
-
Okay, first blast. It's half-speed (or less) to try it out. I get the picture. He's doing a lot of things I'd do anyway using shells, like going for the tritone and moving a shape up and down a fret. And the usual major to inversion run.
I see the point but I'd probably have to swing it along a lot harder to get the full effect. Anyway, here's an excruciating couple of minutes :-)
Early days. I might get to miss my maj7 sounds after a while... we'll see.
-
Graham -
Well, I woke up this morning...
Playig it in my head. Of course, it'll have to go a lot faster than that. I'm not Freddie on a bandstand banging out 4 different chords to the bar at a fast pace -
(I used to do that with shells on Rhythm Changes very fast, probably still could)
- so I think I might just take maybe two shapes to each bar. Also, although I know my 5th in the bass stuff too, I might use my fingers and play on the inside roots as well, it'll give some variety.
So I can do that. But can we exist solely on shell voicings? Proper comping needs proper chords, depending on the tune. So there's that.
Also I'm not going to give up on my M7 sounds entirely because a) I like them, and b) they're an alternative to 6s. In fact, in one or two bars of a major chord, swapping between the M7 and 6 is a good idea, gives movement.
So I'd do it like this, so far. It's not as imaginative as your version and the finger-plucks are repetitive but I think it would probably pass muster with a solo on top.
Thoughts?
-
Sounds good hearing someone else play it. Of course my example was deliberately a bit extreme, I crammed in as much movement as possible, kind of an exercise. Still sounded cool though!
There are also 6 dim scales in drop 2, drop 3, partial chords (3 notes), across all possible string sets, so you aren’t limited to shell chords. I tend to mainly use the shells, and the drop 2 on middle 4 and top 4 strings, but that’s just a subset of what’s possible.
You can play ma7 instead of ma6 sometimes, I do that too. Really it’s very flexible, the way I look at it is that by learning the essential 6 dim scale structures, I can quickly generate all these movements on a chord progression. Then by tweaking a note here and there (or as BH would call it, borrowing) I can get other colours into the mix at will.
It’s not so much that I can get chords I wouldn’t get another way (although the borrowing thing can yield some quite unusual combinations), it’s more the ease and speed at which I can create all this fluid harmonic movement. Something I was finding much more cumbersome to do before.
-
How fast do you do it normally? As a backing, that is.
Such as? I'm all for unusual combinations :-)the borrowing thing can yield some quite unusual combinations
-
I would have thought of dominant as the tusks. Each to their own Originally Posted by ragman1
You always do what you want (or what sounds right to you) when playing, or you should.But I don't want a b9 sound all the time... too sweet by half.
So I suppose this is where the 'do what you want' bit comes in. I mean, you can see why this stuff is strange, can't you?
When you practice, you don't. That's why practice is a bore but we have to do it to learn new stuff.
If you see it as strange, that's one thing. Modern day jazz theory is pretty limited in some applications, focusses towards a certain set of sounds. But do you hear it as strange?
1940s swing music? This is the style of harmony used in the saxophones very often... George Shearing's piano playing? It is old timey, actually...
Barry didn't invent this stuff... People where harmonising in parallel block chords while he was still a kid.
Barry simply took it a bit further. And it no longer sounds old timey because all the sounds are in there via borrowing and so on. And you havemore flexibility because you are no longer thinking in grips. But you start with the block chords...
(At least that's the way it would be if I could actually do it on guitar. I've kind of given up.)
Reply With Quote
no click pick: any suggestion?
Today, 07:58 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos