Harmonizing scales

[Jack E Blue]

Jack Peason is not a jazz musician, he's just another guitar player who can play jazz, because his bag is bigger than jazz. He knows as much theory as Wes and Grant Green did, so he's limited like they were. I wouldn't want to waste my time with lessons from a hack like him....he can only play, but probably can't hang with the geeks from Nerdsville Academy.

Best post in this thread. That's assuming I'm correctly interpreting the tongue-in-cheekiness.

[pauln]

I don't have that many strings.

Sure you do...

In case anyone is really wondering,

x11111112x
x13131314x

is the same as

x 11 11 11 12 x
x 13 13 13 14 x

[christianm77]

No I broke one.

Should I buy a new guitar?

[wolflen]

Sure you do...

In case anyone is really wondering,

x11111112x
x13131314x

is the same as

x 11 11 11 12 x
x 13 13 13 14 x

I only have 6 strings...who has 12 13 or 14 strings..and why do they have them...

[mr. beaumont]

No I broke one.

Should I buy a new guitar?

I dunno, was it an important string?

[RayBan]

Jack Peason is not a jazz musician, he's just another guitar player who can play jazz, because his bag is bigger than jazz. He knows as much theory as Wes and Grant Green did, so he's limited like they were. I wouldn't want to waste my time with lessons from a hack like him....he can only play, but probably can't hang with the geeks from Nerdsville Academy.

Like the old economists' joke: Yeah, sure, it works in practice; the question is, will it work in theory?

[John A.]

Jack Peason is not a jazz musician, he's just another guitar player who can play jazz, because his bag is bigger than jazz. He knows as much theory as Wes and Grant Green did, so he's limited like they were. I wouldn't want to waste my time with lessons from a hack like him....he can only play, but probably can't hang with the geeks from Nerdsville Academy.

That's some nice stuff there. What do you call someone who plays jazz really well? A jazz musician, among other things.

John

[WILSON 1]

Wilson is doing the ‘borrowing’ thing to change the dim chords into something else, apparently.



For Heavens sake.

Everyone voice xx2233 on the instrument.

Now you can say I took the third of C maj 7 and added a 6 and then a 9 to form a C 6/9.

or

you can voice xx2213 ( C6 /E) and borrow the alto voice (D) from the F dim (of the C6 dim scale) to form C 6/9..same chord

only Barry Harris theory utilizes a GRAPHIC method for creating chords and dims can borrow from inversions too.

His theory immerses us into the C chromatic scale making every accidental available and the C6 dim, Cmin6 dim, G7dim and G7b5dim scales form the harmonic structure for progressions.

[christianm77]

Wilson is doing the ‘borrowing’ thing to change the dim chords into something else, apparently.



For Heavens sake.

Everyone voice xx2233 on the instrument.

Now you can say I took the third of C maj 7 and added a 6 and then a 9 to form a C 6/9.

or

you can voice xx2213 ( C6 /E) and borrow the alto voice (D) from the F dim (of the C6 dim scale) to form C 6/9..same chord

only Barry Harris theory utilizes a GRAPHIC method for creating chords and dims can borrow from inversions too.

His theory immerses us into the C chromatic scale making every accidental available and the C6 dim, Cmin6 dim, G7dim and G7b5dim scales form the harmonic structure for progressions.

Do you think this theory helps in this specific teaching situation?

I mean even when teaching physics we tell helpful lies, even if you think the maj-6 dim scale is a law of nature rather than the work of Man...

[ragman1]

.

only Barry Harris theory

Only the Bible. Only the Koran. Only what MY belief says.

Doesn't cut it.

[WILSON 1]

Only the Bible. Only the Koran. Only what MY belief says.

Doesn't cut it.

Whoa...big fella!

Calm down...

..the line break gave my statement incorrect emphasis. I meant to indicate that the 6 dim system gives you ALSO a graphic reference not that it is the be-all and end-all way to go.

christian77 stated that he likes to create chords first and worry about the label later and this harmonic system allows for a lot of that.

I am truly disappointed, though, to note the number of musician here who believe that a diminished chord must be played in order to reference this theory.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I am truly disappointed, though, to note the number of musician here who believe that a diminished chord must be played in order to reference this theory.

But there's only one distinguishing note from major. You take any set of voicings built from diatonic major ....and say it's built from the "6th dim scale", but without the b6, that's the same as saying it's "built from the chromatic scale". It doesn't require a full diminished chord, but doesn't it actually require the b6 somewhere to distinguish itself?

Does the original example have a b6 in it?

[ragman1]

Wilson -

Truncating your post wasn't an attempt at misrepresentation, just a shortcut. I wouldn't call the usual way of doing music a theory. It's too carefully organised and worked out for that. But when someone comes up with their own theory then we're into a different world. And it's a limited world. It tends to attract followers, like a guru does, and all the rest of it. And there's no arguing with them.

I stated that the "source" was Ab 6 dim scale not that was the scale being played.

Well, if it wasn't the scale being played, what relevance has it?

[WILSON 1]

that's the same as saying it's "built from the chromatic scale".

BINGO! ...and that's a big bingo.

[christianm77]

Hey, let's not bother trying to teach someone in as clear way as we can, introducing theoretical concepts as they are necessary and providing as gradual as possible a difficulty curve in what is a very involved artform that can be completely intimidating to the newcomer, let's argue the philosophical toss about whether a harmonisation that doesn't include a b6 can be considered to be maj6-dim or not.

I'm going to be writing an essay about you lot at some point. The term 'problematic' will be used unironically. You have been warned! :-)

[joe2758]

Hey, let's not bother trying to teach someone in as clear way as we can, introducing theoretical concepts as they are necessary and providing as gradual as possible a difficulty curve in what is a very involved artform that can be completely intimidating to the newcomer, let's argue the philosophical toss about whether a harmonisation that doesn't include a b6 can be considered to be maj6-dim or not.

I'm going to be writing an essay about you lot at some point. The term 'problematic' will be used unironically. You have been warned! :-)

yeah everyone shutup except Christian. He tried to warn us on that chord progression thread, but you're not listening. Now face his wrath.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Hey, let's not bother trying to teach someone in as clear way as we can, introducing theoretical concepts as they are necessary and providing as gradual as possible a difficulty curve in what is a very involved artform that can be completely intimidating to the newcomer, let's argue the philosophical toss about whether a harmonisation that doesn't include a b6 can be considered to be maj6-dim or not.

I'm going to be writing an essay about you lot at some point. The term 'problematic' will be used unironically. You have been warned! :-)

Ha. No. It's more about not over complicating for the beginner. A major scale isn't a sixth diminished scale minus 1 note nor a chromatic scale minus5 notes, nor is it a pentatonic +2 notes. NONE of that is helpful.

It has a very basic implication for how we want to discuss for someone trying to understand these things. If the beginner needs to know that is built from a major scale , it doesn't help to make it more complicated for my own sake.

[christianm77]

yeah everyone shutup except Christian. He tried to warn us on that chord progression thread, but you're not listening. Now face his wrath.

Face my highly academic, extremely dry but well referenced wrath!

[Tal_175]

You guys are beating the dead horse. OP is gone already. Barrier to entry to jazz has been heroically defended one more time.

[christianm77]

Ha. No. It's more about not over complicating for the beginner. A major scale isn't a sixth diminished scale minus 1 note nor a chromatic scale minus5 notes, nor is it a pentatonic +2 notes. NONE of that is helpful.

It has a very basic implication for how we want to discuss for someone trying to understand these things. If the beginner needs to know that is built from a major scale , it doesn't help to make it more complicated for my own sake.

(Aha! But, but it's not a full major scale, actually is it? It's actually major scale -1. There is no Db in any of the voicings or in the melody line.)

Anyway, I think the major scale is culturally familiar and easy to sing, so is probably a safer bet. I think my post was a pretty decent fist at giving a relevant, clear answer. Maybe too much info.

Really I'd just rather the OP learned the shapes and could play them fluently. I explain 'it's all Ab major' and then we can have a go harmonising some other simple melodies. If they were in a room with me. Other info can be introduced as required.

[Tal_175]

But hey, nobody is responsible for anybodies jazz education other than the student himself/herself. A successful student must understand the strengths and weaknesses of each educational resource. Internet forums has to be seen in this light.

[grahambop]

Yes the OP has been taught a brutal lesson which can only toughen him up for the obstacles ahead.

[christianm77]

But hey, nobody is responsible for anybodies jazz education other than the student himself/herself. A successful student must understand the strengths and weaknesses of each educational resource. Internet forums has to be seen in this light.

Well that’s a cop out if ever I heard one haha.

[joe2758]

You could explain something to me, if you'd like to. Keeping to the major scale, the BH thing comes from harmonising the major bebop scale, right? That produces maj6 inversions interspersed with diminished chords. So the C maj scale (leaving out the G#o) would look like:

C6, Do, C6/E, Fo, (Am7?), Bo, C6.

I'm just stacking 4-note chords from the C major bebop scale. I'm not sure what happened to the Em7, or the F maj, or the G7. The F seems to have become a dim chord and the G7 doesn't seem to exist at all. Which, of course, is nonsense. If you reharmed a simple tune in C it would sound completely wrong.

Of course, you could rearrange the order, which is fiddling it really, and say the F is now an Am7 (I think) and the G7 is a Bo. That would make more sense but it's changing the original plan. What does the Fo represent?

Where am I going wrong? But, more important, what are you supposed to DO with this stuff? I just want to play nice tunes, not start from scratch again. This guy's messing with my mind!

Help me, Matt


(Don't anyone say it'll take too long to explain, I won't believe you :-) And no endless list of links, please. I want someone here to do it. Then I'll listen most attentively)

The C6 dim scale contains G7 and E7. That's a major point he makes. It includes all the major diatonic chords plus the diminished chord. It's not fiddling, he calls it "borrowing," which is a major part of the approach

[joe2758]

Then using the concept of related dominants you also get Eb7 and Db7. Then, including the biii dim you get four more dominants.