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Hello Guys
I have a question about the 2nd bar of Joy Spring. Every transcription on the internet says that the chord is a Gm7. I decided to transcribe the original version by Clifford Brown and my ears are ´´screaming for me´´ that it is really a Bb6 and not a Gm7. The melody stays on the note G and the bass plays the notes Bb, C, D, E. I know that Gm7 is relative to Bb6 and it works well too, and I also know that we can see it as an inversion of Gm7 chord, but I´m not talking about this nor sustitution. I don´t know why but I’m hearing a IV chord instead of IIm7. What do you think about? Did you experienced something like this?
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06-09-2018 03:05 PM
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Not sure it matters...it's I to V back to I anyway you slice it.
the ii V is so ubiquitous to jazz, anyway...people play them even when they aren't there...
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Ok, I know that II V is everywhere, but why not to write it down on transcriptions? (maybe a kind of laziness). For me the IV V I gives me a different sensation compared to II V I. Saying that on jazz we have always IIm7 instead of IV is like to say: play the dorian mode on the IIm7 chord.....end of history....maybe these details matters.
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This a question for the bass player. I don’t care.
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I dunno, I just think you kind of have to look at tunes as a bigger picture...there's a pretty clear pattern that "joy" follows, and I'm not sure if micro analyzing 2 beats of it is worth it, or if it's really all that helpful in playing the tune.
Originally Posted by rodolfoguitarra
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On the last A section of the Head the bass plays does a similar thing (outlining the IV chord). I think it has a porpouse, it is not occasional.
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There is no porpoise to this tune.
You'll need Herbie Hancock or Bronislaw Kaper for that.
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(Sorry everyone, I couldn't resist.)
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I didn´t get it....don´t know british humor. Originally Posted by christianm77
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It's very childish word play. (British humour that is.) Originally Posted by rodolfoguitarra
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lol Originally Posted by christianm77
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Call it whatever you want, both chords have the same notes.
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Same notes but different sensation Originally Posted by sgosnell
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IMO it depends on the inversion/fingering chosen. But I still don't hear much difference.
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Have you checked out Jack Montrose's arrangement for the first recording of the Joy Spring (in Eb not F) on the album Jazz Immortal? In the first statement of the head, he has no supporting harmony at all for that point in the tune and the final return has some crazy subs. Maybe you're onto something...
Last edited by PMB; 06-10-2018 at 04:42 AM.
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Seriously I think this question is moot unless you are playing it without a bass instrument
In which case explore the different options.
On guitar we are the middle voices and the main job of the middle voices are not to move too much and distract from the melody - unless we are in counterpoint.
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I was just having a laugh really yet listening back to the celebrated version with Max Roach, they do mostly play the IV (Bb6) at that point. The "offical" lead sheet of the tune with the ii-V is published by Don Sickler of Second Floor Music but I have no idea if he consulted an autograph copy or simply transcribed the performance. Maybe the IV-(V) was Clifford's written change. It's tempting to believe that everyone now plays the alternative due to the excessive ii-V mentality that plagued the '70s Real Book but Joe Pass was already incorporating that movement back in the early '60s.
Last edited by PMB; 06-10-2018 at 09:49 AM.
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I’d like to blame the 70s too, but I think the second gen boppers were the ii-v brigade.
If I understand the history, it signalled the change to a different way of learning improvisation where lines could be easily transplanted into different contexts.Last edited by christianm77; 06-10-2018 at 08:13 AM.
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This is the way Reg talks about it, in both senses: 1)that it was a BANDSTAND thing in terms of development and 2)that it's about the sub "relationships" that it creates. Originally Posted by christianm77
There's often an over-focus on "throwing a II-7 in front of everything". There's that, but there's just as much a related "would-be V7#11" to be put behind minor chords... or behind would-be minor chord subs. This is a big part of his "creating relationships"... subbing in chord patterns which "reference" a different tonal area.
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That sounds about what I expected. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
That said relationship between minor and dominant is a pretty fundamental thing to understand for any jazz musician and predates the bop era.
(I did have to show a student that they could play dominant bebop language on minor. Obviously they knew the melodic minor relationship, but it had never occurred to them to turn the relationship around.)
Anyway, it seems manifest people were relating minor and dominant (and what modern educators call m7b5) since the 1920s.
And yet I feel that the heavy ii V thing really comes in later (obviously you get more ii Vs in post bop accompaniment.) Specifically I think in terms of subbing for dim7 chords. Stella is the obvious example.
An important early example of dim —> sideslip is probably Groovin High were the original turnaround Gm Gbo7 Fm Bb7 is subbed Gm7 Gbm7 Fm7 Bb7 ... tame example but keep applying that logic and you end up with Benny Golson. Or Moments Notice. Or Wes come to think of it.
So I tend to think of the ii v thing as a really good trick that caught on because it was easy to teach and use.
Anyway the ii V concept, is encapsulated by Barry Harris thinking in the dominant scale - but in terms of line building I find it a bit more flexible and less clunky. The handling of minor ii Vs for instance, is brilliant imo. Progressions that seem random in the ii v approach suddenly make total sense.
(The big difference I would say is the mastery of the diminished chord.)
But it’s the same thing - modular harmony, transplantable lines, ignore the original melody’s harmonic implications. That’s bop changes playing right there.Last edited by christianm77; 06-10-2018 at 08:14 AM.
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I think you get the point of my question Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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I transcribed this at some point, with the bass part, and the bass does play Bb, C, D, E in bar 2. Interestingly, the piano plays G-7 and Ab-7 up to A-7 in bar 3. If you analyzed with the bass notes, you'd come up with Bb6, D13(b9)(#11), Fmaj7(9), or some such, but I doubt the intent was to be so deep. Originally Posted by rodolfoguitarra
Regarding your original question: if you're hearing the Bb as the root of the chord change, you'd call it Bb6.
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That's hip isn't it? Abm7 on the C7
Ab Cb Eb Gb..
Notice the naughty Major seventh on the C7.
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ps: another error is that leadsheets says that the chord in the 5th bar of the head is a Am7 (IIIm7). The correct one is F/A, because the melody is the note F and the bass is A. I know that the IIIm7 substitutes the I, but I am analyzing what it was, not what it could or can be. I found lots of error like this in realbooks, some people argue that Jazz is improvised music and that other chords can be notated, but IMHO the transcription must be accurate. After that, you can do wherever you want.
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Lead sheets are always a simplification anyway. F/A is probably better for the chord symbol... But... jazz is a music of layers... Originally Posted by rodolfoguitarra
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