Long Passing Diminished Chords - what to do?

[omphalopsychos]

So, I'm trying to work on building more swing rhythm vocabulary. One thing that comes up in older compositions is the passing diminished chord. Slow Boat to China would be a good example, starting with Bb - Bº - Cm. The Bº is a great way to get to the II of the key. And then you can throw in the bIIIº to get to the III of the key, which happens in the song. I'm used to inserting passing chords where they are not written, and passing over them quickly. I have trouble coming up with more variety when there are 4 beats of a diminished chord, though. Any thoughts on how to keep the movement going when there's a whole bar of diminished (besides inverting the diminished)? Specifically, I'm looking for ideas that sound like swing or early bop. I bet there are plenty of post bop ideas that would work well by treating the dim as an Alt7 chord, but I'm not sure if they will sound good in swing style comping.

[pauln]

Some substitutions...? Here are a few.


Subs for the Bb
[9 x 8 8 9 x] Bb 69
[x 10 10 10 11 x] Bb 6sus2/G


Subs for the Bdim
[7 x 6 7 8 x] Bm6#5
[x x 9 10 11 11] Db 13 no root
[9 x 9 8 8 x] Db 7#11sus2
[x 10 9 8 8] x Gaug
[x 8 9 8 8 x] Gaug/F


Experiment... some combinations are smooth, others more angular; listen for the ones that sound like you want.


I think this sequence is nice.


Bb(69) -> Bb(6sus2/G) -> Db(13)nr -> Gaug/F -> Cm7

[Jonah]

I think in swing I would just think of moving bass line as an approach note from above and from below... and the chordsare just just what sounds good in the context...
(even if you omit the bass)..

[Jonah]

Check this - quite moving and easy to hear and transcribe.

The 'melodic' ideas of comping are very similar actually

[christianm77]

So, I'm trying to work on building more swing rhythm vocabulary. One thing that comes up in older compositions is the passing diminished chord. Slow Boat to China would be a good example, starting with Bb - Bº - Cm. The Bº is a great way to get to the II of the key. And then you can throw in the bIIIº to get to the III of the key, which happens in the song. I'm used to inserting passing chords where they are not written, and passing over them quickly. I have trouble coming up with more variety when there are 4 beats of a diminished chord, though. Any thoughts on how to keep the movement going when there's a whole bar of diminished (besides inverting the diminished)? Specifically, I'm looking for ideas that sound like swing or early bop. I bet there are plenty of post bop ideas that would work well by treating the dim as an Alt7 chord, but I'm not sure if they will sound good in swing style comping.

The bIIIo7 also commonly moves to chord II - I Can't Give You Anything But Love.

[christianm77]

Oh you could play Bbmaj7 Bb6 | Bo(maj7) Bo7 | Cm7 Cm6 - 7 to 6 idea

You can also borrow notes from the target chord. But TBH, if your aim is to play swing rhythm guitar - Keep it Simple.

[christianm77]

In the context of #Io7 I would tend to treat that chord as VI7b9 and do all my 7 stuff as well as dim stuff, which you can hear a bit with the first example Jonah posted.

Play through inversions of the VI7 chord, and move to dim.

Also - Barry Harris.

[omphalopsychos]

Thanks everyone for the tips. Will give them a try today.

Also - Barry Harris.

Thats what I was thinking, but elaborate please.

[Jonah]

The bIIIo7 also commonly moves to chord II - I Can't Give You Anything But Love.

but when you have III right after II in the song it would be a bit awkward to use bIIIo7 to approahc both.. though possible.. just no0t the best solution imho

[Jonah]

Thanks everyone for the tips. Will give them a try today.



Thats what I was thinking, but elaborate please.

hm...


sorry for sarcasm

[christianm77]

Thanks everyone for the tips. Will give them a try today.



Thats what I was thinking, but elaborate please.

OK, so you are going to Cm7 in the example... We can use the Eb6-dim scale

Eb F G Ab Bb B C D

Now we can break this into two chords

Eb6 (Cm7) C Eb G Bb
and Do7 (Bo7) D F Ab B

OK, so one trick I like is to borrow notes from Cm7 into Bo7, so the obvious thing would be to borrow the melody note..

7 x 6 7 8 x - Bo7 add b13
7 x 6 7 6 x - Bo7
10 x 9 10 11 x - Bo(maj7)/D
10 x 9 10 9 x - Bo7/D
etc

But - I would do this for a chord solo or something - it's not something I tend to use for rhythm playing.

Another thing, if you want a walking bassline/chord line take that Bo7 and tonicise it with a dim7 a half step below:

Bo7 C#o7 Do7 Eo7 Fo7 Go7 Abo7 etc

This gives you the dim-dim scale as I like to call it :-) Or the whole-half scale as normal people call it.

[christianm77]

but when you have III right after II in the song it would be a bit awkward to use bIIIo7 to approahc both.. though possible.. just no0t the best solution imho

Common swing era version of rhythm changes goes:

Bb Bo7 | Cm7 C#o7 | Dm7 Dbo7 | Cm7 F7 | etc

[mr. beaumont]

So the OP was about long segments of a diminished chord...

Generally, for swing rhythm. yeah, keep it simple, playing the same chord shape for 4 beats isn't a sin--but I suppose if you want to spice things up, simply figuring out what dominant the diminished is standing in for, and it's tritone sub, can give you options...

But I think diminished chords are very much the flavor of swing rhythm. Play 'em.

[omphalopsychos]

Christian, how did you come up with Eb for the root of the minor6º? Is it because the Bº stands for a Bb7b9 and then you use the 5 minor6 (Barry Harris sub)?

Here's another question. As Christian pointed out, the IIm can be arrived at either by the bIIº or by the bIIIº. Can I use them interchangeably? I was working on this last night and was digging movement from Bb6/D - Dbº - Cm7.

Pauln those are some cool ideas. It seems like you're treating that dim as G7 of some sort and then applying substitutions on that including tritone sub? Am I getting it correct? For the BH guys, I guess that would also open up the Fø (or Abm6º) as a set of possibilities?

[omphalopsychos]

Just to be clear, I don't think looking deeply into this really interferes with the simplicity of the playing, ultimately. Having a bunch of options doesn't mean I'm ever going to use them all in one bar. The goal is to have tons of ways to play the same movement and try to have maybe 2 chords per bar. Maybe get a bit more complicated when I do some chord melody on it.

[ragman1]

In 'Slow Boat' the two dim chords could be played as G7(b9) and A7(b9). At least that's what I'd do. The real point is the ascending bass Bb-B-C-C#-D-Eb.

[mr. beaumont]

Just to be clear, I don't think looking deeply into this really interferes with the simplicity of the playing, ultimately. Having a bunch of options doesn't mean I'm ever going to use them all in one bar. The goal is to have tons of ways to play the same movement and try to have maybe 2 chords per bar. Maybe get a bit more complicated when I do some chord melody on it.

I don't think it does either--my comments are only based on that you said "swing rhythm." That's a specific sound, and those chords are a specific thing.

[kris]

[christianm77]

Christian, how did you come up with Eb for the root of the minor6º? Is it because the Bº stands for a Bb7b9 and then you use the 5 minor6 (Barry Harris sub)?

It’s the maj6 dim. Eb6 = Cm7. That’s the target chord. Think where the progression is going not just the chord of the moment.

Bo7 is part of the Eb6-dim scale.

Here's another question. As Christian pointed out, the IIm can be arrived at either by the bIIº or by the bIIIº. Can I use them interchangeably? I was working on this last night and was digging movement from Bb6/D - Dbº - Cm7.

Pretty much, depending on the melody.

Pauln those are some cool ideas. It seems like you're treating that dim as G7 of some sort and then applying substitutions on that including tritone sub? Am I getting it correct? For the BH guys, I guess that would also open up the Fø (or Abm6º) as a set of possibilities?

Yeah it is a G7 of some sort.

As a first step I like to contextualise dominants as part of the scale of the target chord because it seems to be the point of having the BH scales to begin with.

But the next step would be to use the Abm for more colour.

[christianm77]

Pat Martino isn’t a swing rhythm guitarist, mind.

[mr. beaumont]

Another thing I'd really recommend is trying to create a tenor line on the 4th string, a la later Freddie Green. Then, you can add a note on the third string (or the sixth, to get the bass movement) to flesh things out--but let the 4th string control the movement. Bass note movement sounds great when playing alone, but it's not really the job of a swing rhythm player.

[omphalopsychos]

It’s the maj6 dim. Eb6 = Cm7.

Duh. I don't know why I read that as Ebminor6º. I guess that would be the Barry Harris backdoor dominant to Cm7.

[omphalopsychos]

I don't think it does either--my comments are only based on that you said "swing rhythm." That's a specific sound, and those chords are a specific thing.

Fair point. There are plenty of diminished harmony tricks that would sound awful in this context.

[Jonah]

Common swing era version of rhythm changes goes:

Bb Bo7 | Cm7 C#o7 | Dm7 Dbo7 | Cm7 F7 | etc

But consequence is different... here you first approach III then use the same chord to approach II...
If you use it at the beginning it does not sound that good

[christianm77]

But consequence is different... here you first approach III then use the same chord to approach II...
If you use it at the beginning it does not sound that good

I don't think I get you. Can you write out some chords of the bad thing?