Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar

[grahambop]

I agree with ColinO. I don't think the idea is to use these chords to resolve individually. Instead you move from that first chord (which you can view as a kind of B7 leading to E, or as a kind of F7 leading to Bb) and end up at either of those 2 destinations. Going there via those other chords provides some unusual harmonies along the way.

[rlrhett]

Well, I had posted a final response to section 2.7 but it has disappeared. I guess that Mark the moderator thought it too dumb and decided to save me from myself. The upshot was I don't "hear" that movement well, but I'm woodshedding it. I'm frustrated that Kingstone didn't complete the examples to resolution either on page 37 or 38.

The F6/Dm7 -> Dm6 thing is fine, the problem is the resolution. I guess that is my own personal struggle. I find it easy to have harmonic motion move AWAY, but a real challenge to make it then RESOLVE in a pleasing and natural way. Especially when changing key. I believe it is the resolutions that reward the listener for going on your journey and tells them your trip was intentional. I wish Kingstone hadn't treated them as an afterthought. Anyhoo...

Turning my attention to section 2.8, I think it is a bit of "lick library" for the concepts presented in the second part of section 2.4. Taking that transition between the IIm7(IV6) -> V7(IIm6) -> Imaj7(I6) and stretching it out with lots of movement using the 6dim and m6dim scales. A bit like scale exercises. Again, the examples don't always resolve well to the G6. I can't put my finger on why, but I will woodshed the examples for a week or so to see if my ear evolves.

One small request to the Barry Harris cognoscenti of the board: Anyone willing to post a 12 bar blues progression using the 6dim and m6dim scale only? I think that would help me immensely to understand how this system applies to Dominant chords and modulations. Would an application use the three dim families for a 12 bar blues? Should the V7 chord be played as a bVIm6 in the fashion of section 2.8? Etc, etc... I know that you CAN do any of that. But when I hear BH on YouTube play the blues it is very clearly the BLUES. So how is that done without traditional 7 chords?

Thanks!

[grahambop]

Well, I had posted a final response to section 2.7 but it has disappeared. I guess that Mark the moderator thought it too dumb and decided to save me from myself. The upshot was I don't "hear" that movement well, but I'm woodshedding it. I'm frustrated that Kingstone didn't complete the examples to resolution either on page 37 or 38.

One small request to the Barry Harris cognoscenti of the board: Anyone willing to post a 12 bar blues progression using the 6dim and m6dim scale only? I think that would help me immensely to understand how this system applies to Dominant chords and modulations. Would an application use the three dim families for a 12 bar blues? Should the V7 chord be played as a bVIm6 in the fashion of section 2.8? Etc, etc... I know that you CAN do any of that. But when I hear BH on YouTube play the blues it is very clearly the BLUES. So how is that done without traditional 7 chords?

Have a look at my suggested resolution in post 159 for that section 2.7 progression - I think it sounds ok. I guess Alan didn't complete it because he wanted us to do the work ourselves!

Re. the blues, you can cover any standard progression in BH terms using the rules I listed in post 28. (By the way they are not my rules - they are all mentioned in the book somewhere). For a blues you probably want to treat the 3 main dominants (I, IV, V) as 'unaltered' so use min6 on the 5th of each one. Then between those, you can create other movements as required e.g. altered V7 to I targeting each dominant, also throw in some diminished chords for 7b9 sounds, etc. Lots of possibilities.

So for example a blues in F, play movements on the first chord (F7) using Cmin6/dim. I expect Barry could be using this sometimes, your ear will still hear it as F7 in the context of a blues.

I'll try and put together a blues example when I get time.

[ColinO]

There is no reason why a Blues shouldn't work just fine doing what grahambop has said - ie using the m6/dim scales over the dominant 7 chords. The Cm6 is an F9 without the root after all. Might sound better along with a bass player playing the root notes but should be fine without as well. And as grahambop also said, don't forget that the first suggestion made in the book to deal with 7th chords is the diminished chord a major 3d from the root which in the case of F7 would result in a F7b9 chord.

We probably should not forget that, although we have been concentrating on the major and minor 6 diminished scales, the book also includes a dominant 7/diminished scale which you could use as well, not just for blues but for everything else. For some reason he puts the dom7/dim chord scale in the appendices but he refers to that scale right at the beginning of the book.

So the basic choices from the book include (for each dominant 7 chord):

1. m6/dim scale a 5th above the root;
2. m6/dim scale a b2 above the root;
3 dim7 a M3 above the root;
4. dom7/dim scale starting on the root.

I would add that it seems likely that the book implies other choices as well - for example, since he mentions that there are four dom7 chords that are all related and can sub for each other, you could also probably use (on F7 for example) Ab7/dim scale, B7/dim scale and D7/dim scale too.

I also don't think you really lose any of the traditional 7th chords using the BH method. They are all there, either in the straight dim scales or by borrowing notes from related dim chords. BH just puts it all into a context that I find attractive and that results in movement that makes sense with nice voice leading that sounds good.

[grahambop]

Great post by ColinO - really covers it.

Also I think the book has some Dom7flat5 / dim scales in the appendices - so yet another option for a dominant sound!

[grahambop]

Incidentally, I saw Howard Alden a few days ago and I was only sitting a few feet away, so I was able to get a clear view of his fretboard. Howard uses a lot of really nice chordal textures whether comping or soloing, and he also featured 3 excellent solo pieces.

In everything he played, I could see what looked like 6/dim type movements in his chord work. There were definitely some very familiar chord shapes being used!

[christianm77]

I know Howard has checked out Barry.

BTW I really like those hybrid sounds.

[grahambop]

I know Howard has checked out Barry.

BTW I really like those hybrid sounds.

Hi Christian, just wondered what you mean by hybrid sounds? 'Twas a bit cryptic for me! Did you mean the 'borrowing' stuff perhaps?

[christianm77]

Hi Christian, just wondered what you mean by hybrid sounds? 'Twas a bit cryptic for me! Did you mean the 'borrowing' stuff perhaps?

Yeah - so starting with a chord with some borrowed notes and planing through the scale.

You know, this process is very similar to Allan Holdsworth's approach with the main difference that he used seven note scales - the major, melodic minor and melodic min #4.

But Allan does in fact mention these three 8-note scales in his video

1 2 3 4 5 b6 6 7
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 6 7
and
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7

which he called 'jazz scales'

I wonder if he ever put chords through them? The Barry/Holdsworth connection lol (both also Jimmy Raney fans and coming out of Parker.)

[WILSON 1]

OK, Colino and grahampop I took your advice and ran some of those harmonics into Bb!
You guys are right!
Shouldn't look at each chord as independent sub to the V, but run them together.

If this link works you will here the soprano voice two times from B dim (pg 53, fourth graphic from left) and then harmonized using the harmonies moving down to Bb.

Sounds ok to me!

Thanks guys.

[NSJ]

Don't sleep on the v6-vi7 cadence especially if it's not just moving the same shape-voicing down the neck .

[rlrhett]

Have a look at my suggested resolution in post 159 for that section 2.7 progression - I think it sounds ok. I guess Alan didn't complete it because he wanted us to do the work ourselves!

Thanks grahambop! Actually in the missing post I said yours was the only one I had found that sounded good. I've been playing that fingering and looking for others.

We probably should not forget that, although we have been concentrating on the major and minor 6 diminished scales, the book also includes a dominant 7/diminished scale which you could use as well, not just for blues but for everything else. For some reason he puts the dom7/dim chord scale in the appendices but he refers to that scale right at the beginning of the book.

I probably shouldn't forget, but I had! Subbing straight m6 on the 5th sounded too altered for the blues, but I've just begun looking at the dom6 scale and am digging it. I feel a video coming on...

[rlrhett]

BTW: I was Googling the book and realized that Alan has what amounts to a DVD of himself explaining the chapters of the book:

Jazz School Online - Harmony Lessons for Guitar

The format is weird. I guess you get to stream the DVD for a month for $50, and then lose access unless you want to pay for a second month. It doesn't seem like you get access to Alan through Skype or video exchanges, so it is strictly streaming of the video content. $50 seems a reasonable amount to own the DVD, rather than essentially rent it for a month; so I am unconvinced whether to get it.

Has anyone checked this out? Is it a worthwhile addition to the book to spend $50 for a month's access to video explanations?

[WILSON 1]

Don't want this thread to die ever so I'll just say that @pgs 54-55 I'm not having any fun with five fret stretches.

[ColinO]

Don't want this thread to die ever so I'll just say that @pgs 54-55 I'm not having any fun with five fret stretches.

I don't really want this thread to die either. However, the material up to page 50 or so has given me enough to work on for a while. I think that I need to work on that stuff through more tunes to make sure I have a firm handle on things before moving too far ahead.

The borrowing ideas look cool but it seems to me like something that you really have to work out on your own perhaps using the examples in the book as examples rather than as a set of "chord licks" to be memorised. I think with respect to borrowing, I will be working on adding diminished notes once I have the basic tune down rather than trying to memorise all of the examples in the book. I doubt I would be able to assimilate all that without really nailing the other stuff anyway.

Up to this point, this method has really helped me with a couple of things. First, I don't think I have played two choruses of a tune the same way twice. I am doing far more listening to what I am playing while comping and actively trying to come up with something that is interesting rather than just grabbing the nearest Dm7 grip for example. That may not seem like that big a deal to some , but for me it is really making comping a lot more satisfying.

It's also a lot easier to harmonise starting from the melody, whether it's the melody of the tune or one that is more improvised.

I'll try and contribute by posting some of the tunes I am working on from time to time and will chime in on other stuff if I think I'm understanding the theory enough to be helpful.

I'm really liking the Monk's Moves sections. I do have one question on that. With respect to the Major Scale Monk Moves, the book uses the idea of moving from one one chord quality to another (minor to major or major to minor) where the first and last chords are a 3rd apart. I'm not sure why one can't just ignore the first chord and just approach the target chord using the shape of the target chord from a whole tone below no matter where the destination chord is in relation to the chord we are coming from.

Anyway, really enjoying working on this stuff.

[christianm77]

Monk moves = swing rhythm guitar/stride piano cliches. Remember Monk was a student of James P Johnson

[WILSON 1]

I'll try and contribute by posting some of the tunes I am working on from time to time and will chime in on other stuff if I think I'm understanding the theory enough to be helpful.


Anyway, really enjoying working on this stuff.

That's a good idea. We will be needing some solid examples applying these harmonic ideas.
I do believe that the Barry Harris "school" of thought is the way to go and do find the book to be very helpful.

I did attend a Harris clinic in NYC. It was well over my head at that time but I took on a teacher who was a student of Harris and very close to him; even traveled abroad with him. So I've had exposure to a great deal of this information but was never really ready for it.

Now it's time to get all those notes he wrote out for me 30 years ago and get it into my playing.

I'm working on producing some videos but have never done it before; have no idea how that will work out and don't really like the time it consumes, but we'll see.

Keep this thread alive!

[rlrhett]

I'm with you, ColinO. Now that we are coming to the end of Chapter 2, I need some time to digest and apply. Since my main interest is creating solo guitar arrangements, I've been trying to harmonize and arrange a bunch of melodies from "They Can't Take That Away From Me" to "Hello, Goodbye" using the method. It's exhausting, but it's beginning to make some sense.

I've actually started over at the beginning of the chapter. I find that after carefully working through material (any material) it helps to circle back to the beginning and see what you missed. I'm finding I missed a lot. Sometimes it feels like my brain is made of semi-maleable stuff that just doesn't want to take the mold on the first strike. It takes several strikes to get all the fine detail.

As to the Monk Moves, I believe you can ignore the starting point and just use the chromatic approach. A chromatic approach is common, but what I think this section is about is showing how you can use that common device to link "brothers and sisters". We have seen how to link them using dim, this is an alternative. At least that is how I'm reading it.

Wilson1, if you mean making videos to share here it is actually dead simple. I just us a web cam and Quicktime (on a Mac). But I know that Windows has a built in "Camera" app that is pretty simple and intuitive to use. Both will post to your YouTube account with a single click of a button. Of course this doesn't produce commercial quality audio or video, but for a study group it is plenty. You get an email from YouTube that your video is ready and all you have to do is copy and paste the URL into your post here.

Obviously, I'm a big fan of posting videos. As I've said before: "Explanation + Demonstration = Communication". There is something about actually seeing someone a) demonstrate something as they, b) explain their thinking, c) in real time that is simply orders of magnitude better at sharing an idea than a 300 word written explanation.

[ColinO]

In the spirit of keeping the thread going, I have (another) observation/question.

I was thinking about All The Things You Are. So the RB progression is Fm7 -Bbm7- Eb7 -Abmaj7 -Dbmaj7 for the first 5 bars. The BH changes would be Ab6/dim- Db6/dim -Eb7 -Ab6/dim -Db6/dim.

Using the 6 on the 5th over the Db6s, you could look at it as Ab6/dim -Ab6/dim -Eb7 -Ab6/dim -Ab6/dim.

And since the dim chord associated with Ab6 is a Eb7b9, you could conceivably get away with playing the whole tune with relatively few 6/dim chord scales.

I presume that the same could be done with many tunes.

What do you think?

[WILSON 1]

Wilson1, if you mean making videos to share here it is actually dead simple. I just us a web cam and Quicktime (on a Mac). But I know that Windows has a built in "Camera" app that is pretty simple and intuitive to use. Both will post to your YouTube account with a single click of a button. Of course this doesn't produce commercial quality audio or video, but for a study group it is plenty. You get an email from YouTube that your video is ready and all you have to do is copy and paste the URL into your post here.

Holy moly, there's a lesson learned.

I just spent two weeks waiting for a web cam that burned out in a day! And doing a "forum search" (duh) uncovered the fact that most people are just using their iPhones!
NOW I see the phone cam has fps and HD as good, if not better, than the stand alone web cam!

I did spend some time with iMovie that I felt was necessary as I want to put up text/graphics that I think will make things clearer.

Sorry..I know this is all off topic and thanks for your help.

[grahambop]

In the spirit of keeping the thread going, I have (another) observation/question.

I was thinking about All The Things You Are. So the RB progression is Fm7 -Bbm7- Eb7 -Abmaj7 -Dbmaj7 for the first 5 bars. The BH changes would be Ab6/dim- Db6/dim -Eb7 -Ab6/dim -Db6/dim.

Using the 6 on the 5th over the Db6s, you could look at it as Ab6/dim -Ab6/dim -Eb7 -Ab6/dim -Ab6/dim.

And since the dim chord associated with Ab6 is a Eb7b9, you could conceivably get away with playing the whole tune with relatively few 6/dim chord scales.

I presume that the same could be done with many tunes.

What do you think?

I tried this out and it sounds ok to me. The only slight side-effect is that over the Bbm chord you are introducing a 4th, but that's no big deal, still works.

[rlrhett]

I like it, ColinO. Here is how I approached it:

The F- and the Abmaj are essentially the same. The B- and the Dbmaj are the same. The first four bars are all about the Ab, next four bars about getting from the Db to the C. So I see us doing a I6-IV6-IVdim-I6 transition, then the roles are switch with the Db being home so we have a quick V6-Vdim-I6 thing to get us there. Finally I have to get to the Cmaj from the Dbmaj. Nothing in the book I could find, but I did notice that the Db7 to Ddim worked and Ddim to Cmaj worked, so I tried it for Dbmaj. Seems like a decent way to get from Dbmaj to Cmaj. Pack that away for future use!

[WILSON 1]

I like it, ColinO. Here is how I approached it:

The F- and the Abmaj are essentially the same. The B- and the Dbmaj are the same. The first four bars are all about the Ab, next four bars about getting from the Db to the C. So I see us doing a I6-IV6-IVdim-I6 transition, then the roles are switch with the Db being home so we have a quick V6-Vdim-I6 thing to get us there. Finally I have to get to the Cmaj from the Dbmaj. Nothing in the book I could find, but I did notice that the Db7 to Ddim worked and Ddim to Cmaj worked, so I tried it for Dbmaj. Seems like a decent way to get from Dbmaj to Cmaj. Pack that away for future use!

Man-o-man we are soooo close! Great post and vid I had to grab my guitar to check.

Here's what I found on first two chords:

x81089x to x88899 !!

Take a look at that second chord:

F from the 1st inversion Ab6
Bb from the important dim of Ab6
Eb from 1st inversion of Ab6
Db from important dim of Ab6 !!

[WILSON 1]

Well, I'll take my chances and put this up on a blues turn using BH methods.

Spending too much time with iMovie and uTube channels, but I guess it's time to enter the 21 Cent.

[wzpgsr]

Well, I'll take my chances and put this up on a blues turn using BH methods.

Nice sounds!