Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar

**grahambop** · 03-11-2018, 08:11 AM

See page 23, second line, first 3 chords. Key of F, top note is A and does not change during the movement in F. So you could easily move this down a few frets to key of C and keep E on the top.

**A. Kingstone** · 03-11-2018, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by rlrhett

Thanks to you and Alan. Would he play these as a sequence? I was envisioning something using Alan’s “Away and Home again” concept to keep harmonic movement while keeping a top pedal note.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Yes, different voicings, same melody note.

I like Grahambop's and your ideas better though, more subtle movement.

**rlrhett** · 03-11-2018, 04:13 PM

Thanks @grahambop! Sometimes it is hard to see the trees in the forest. I can see now that there are a couple of examples. If I look at the notes rather than the chord grids it is easy to see where the top note repeats three times in these examples.

For example, I can see now that the "out and back" examples on page 29 have two examples where the top note is repeated for the full cycle.

**grahambop** · 03-11-2018, 04:20 PM

Yes I had a feeling I’d seen something like that in the book, somehow I managed to find it quite quickly. By the way I think your question is a very good one, I can think of a jazz application in the first bar of Bye Bye Blackbird for example.

**Boston Joe** · 03-12-2018, 01:15 PM

Yowza! I just worked my way through this entire thread. Read every post and watched about half the videos. I've got Alan's course on Truefire, and have ordered the book. I'm looking forward to working through it, using this thread as annotations.

I hope nobody minds if I post observations, even if it's review for some of you guys.

(I've also corresponded a little with Alan. Super helpful very nice guy!)

**joe2758** · 03-12-2018, 01:35 PM

I didn't know he had a truefire course. I'll have to check that out! I wonder if it's the same as the videos on Jazzschoolonline.com

Edit: I'm not seeing it on there

**Boston Joe** · 03-12-2018, 04:28 PM

I had a little down time at work, so I thought I'd take a tune and write in the appropriate BH chords.

Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar-justfriendsbh-jpg

Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar-justfriendsbh-jpg

Questions:

1. The G-7 starting in bar 7: I said Bb6, but it looks like it could also be a temporary tonic minor. Yes? No?

2. The Bb7 in the third to last bar: My instinct is to go with E-6 and have the descending E/Eb/D thing happening, but I can see other options. What's the "conventional" choice here?

3. I was confused by some of the chatter on the thread as to whether we do or do not need to translate the II chords? (Yes, I know I'm using traditional terminology there, but it's just so much easier than saying the "important minor" or "the minor chord built on the second degree.")

4. Generally, am I on the right track?

(Obviously, I'll try this stuff out when I get home.)

**joe2758** · 03-12-2018, 05:26 PM

I believe the ii7 and ii-7b5 should be translated
In myopinion all the D- should be -6
I think you're confused about "the tritone's minor."

It should be the -6 chord based off the important minor of the triton, not a -6 based off the triton

In short a -6 half step above the 7 chord...same way you can play melodic minor a half step up for altered scale

Edit: interesting you got some of them correct like A7/Bb-6. It's probably just you getting used to it

**Boston Joe** · 03-12-2018, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

I believe the ii7 and ii-7b5 should be translated
In myopinion all the D- should be -6
I think you're confused about "the tritone's minor."

It should be the -6 chord based off the important minor of the triton, not a -6 based off the triton

In short a -6 half step above the 7 chord...same way you can play melodic minor a half step up for altered scale

Edit: interesting you got some of them correct like A7/Bb-6. It's probably just you getting used to it

I'm not confused about it. I'm just bad at doing it in my head. I'd have gotten them all right if I were looking at a guitar.

**Boston Joe** · 03-12-2018, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

I believe the ii7 and ii-7b5 should be translated

OK. For some reason, I thought it was common to ignore them and just play the V.

**Boston Joe** · 03-12-2018, 08:08 PM

OK, here's my second attempt. Better?

Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar-at2-jpg

**joe2758** · 03-12-2018, 08:24 PM

The 2 chords look good.

The first A7 should be Bb-6, you got the other A7s right.

The D7 and C7 are the same as before, you should fix those. (D7 should be Eb-6, C7 should be Db-6)

In measure 10 you could do the -6 off the 5th which gives you a non-altered dom9 sound (G-6). Maybe try that for some variety?

**pcjazz** · 03-12-2018, 09:52 PM

I would have interpreted the m7 as Maj6, not min6, i.e. Dm7= F6 (or C6) rather than Dm6.

**joe2758** · 03-12-2018, 09:59 PM

Give it a shot, pcjazz. The more basic/traditional thinking would be to do your way when the chord is functioning as a ii7 and as a -6 when functioning as a tonic

**pcjazz** · 03-12-2018, 10:11 PM

You’re right, Joe, this is a tonic Dm (Dm6) and should not have been notated as Dm7 in the chart.

**christianm77** · 03-13-2018, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by pcjazz

You’re right, Joe, this is a tonic Dm (Dm6) and should not have been notated as Dm7 in the chart.

I would have chosen fewer scales for a basic breakdown

**Boston Joe** · 03-13-2018, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I would have chosen fewer scales for a basic breakdown

Hi Christian, can you elaborate? Which ones would you eliminate?

Sorry for the baby steps here. I learned a very little bit of this stuff (just the maj6 part) from a teacher many years ago, and sort of just incorporated these chord forms along side other things, so making them the basis of an entire system is a little weird. So I think some of the basic mistakes are the result of having thought about them in a different way for many years.

I'm sure I'll smooth some of this out when I get the book and can work through it a little. (I don't think it'll be showing up today, though. A little too blizzardy out there for delivery trucks.)

**Boston Joe** · 03-13-2018, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by pcjazz

I would have interpreted the m7 as Maj6, not min6, i.e. Dm7= F6 (or C6) rather than Dm6.

That was my first thought, but in the JSO course, Alan says several times that you have to treat minors differently depending on context. A II minor is a Maj6, while a I minor is a -6, so I went with the -6.

Not sure how all the fake books started using -7 for tonic minors, but it wouldn't seem to be the best choice.

**grahambop** · 03-13-2018, 08:47 AM

For chord movement I would certainly start by considering all the chords in BH terms, I wouldn't leave any out.

I'm not sure if Christian was possibly thinking about the BH single-note scales? That is a different system altogether from the 'harmonic method' and is aimed at single-note/line improvising. I don't know much about that system, but I can see that for that purpose, you would try and use fewer scales rather than more.

**Boston Joe** · 03-13-2018, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

For chord movement I would certainly start by considering all the chords in BH terms, I wouldn't leave any out.

I'm not sure if Christian was possibly thinking about the BH single-note scales? That is a different system altogether from the 'harmonic method' and is aimed at single-note/line improvising. I don't know much about that system, but I can see that for that purpose, you would try and use fewer scales rather than more.

I'm specifically working on comping here. Comping is going to be my focus for the foreseeable future.

But I've gotten a lot out of Christians posts and videos so if he's got something to say, I want to hear it.

**christianm77** · 03-13-2018, 10:14 AM

I’ll just do the A, B left as an exercise for the student*

If I was going to play a chord solo or basic harmonisation something I’d block it down thus:

Em7b5 A7b9 Dm6 —> Dm6-dim
D7b9 Gm7 —> Gm6-dim
Gm7 C7 F6 —> F6-dim
Bm7 E7 —> Could be E7 or Am6. This is weirdest bit of the tune tbh secondary dominant not resolving as expected. Perhaps I’ve missed something - anyone?
Gm7 C7 F6 —> F6-dim
Em7b5 A7b9 D6 —> D6-dim

Not that your scales are incorrect - just that it represents a level of complexity I’m not sure my ZX Brain 48K can cope with that much stuff at tempo.

No idea how proper this is.

*lazy teacher’s last refuge

**christianm77** · 03-13-2018, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

That was my first thought, but in the JSO course, Alan says several times that you have to treat minors differently depending on context. A II minor is a Maj6, while a I minor is a -6, so I went with the -6.

Not sure how all the fake books started using -7 for tonic minors, but it wouldn't seem to be the best choice.

That is correct.

Btw I was teaching a talented young undergraduate player the other day. I was preparing the Minor Chord Rant.

‘Do you know that a tonic minor sound isn’t a m7?’
‘Yeah.’
‘Wow you have good theory teachers here.’
‘No I just transcribed the 50s stuff and noticed that they never play m7 on I minor chords.’

I have a feeling he will work out just fine.

**Boston Joe** · 03-13-2018, 10:34 AM

OK, well I re-redid the chords, and I'm confident now that I've done them right. However, contra Christian, I did all the chords, but I understand why Christian chose to group some together.

Now to figure out some movements that sound OK.

**joe2758** · 03-13-2018, 10:37 AM

yeah, Christian, would you agree that’s just a question of pedagogy? Playing as you described can be done sometimes, but I find people see this method and start agruing against the “Barry Harris method” saying things like “i don’t know about you, but can hear a sub dom chord.”

You have much more experience teaching than me (I only taught kids at a music store), but is there something to be said for getting the 2 5 1 moves under fingers right off the bat?

For instance you said ridiculous to trt and do that at tempo, but if those patterns have been drilled in by playing tune after tune it’s not like anyone is actually thinking “okay this is the important minor of the five so i’ll play the major sixth off the 3rd of the minor 7th. hmm ok now which inversion is closest.”

personally, i used the theory to find moves i like and then made them habits.

That being said, when in doubt, I listen to Christian (I learned a lot from him too)

**christianm77** · 03-13-2018, 10:51 AM

I dunno, I guess don’t really see much point in using a scale to generate harmony unless you have a few beats to explore it.

Also one of the main advantages that I see in the 6-dim scales is how they encapsulate movements of several chords. The other advantage is that they can be used to create movements on static chords.

This includes the dreaded 2 5 1s as well as more interesting alternatives that have the same basic function and tonality.

So for instance a very basic application, if you plonk me on a Dm turnaround and I am going to make lines and block chords alternating Dm6 and C#o7, for instance.

That’s just how I use that stuff on gigs etc.

But my playing concept is very much about stripping away surface clutter to basic elements and then adding in my own surface clutter.

I credit Barry for this approach, but it’s possible it might be a misunderstanding lol.

It also comes from playing a lot of swing and trad where the chord progressions for the tunes are much simpler than the later versions. Makes yer think....