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Hi,
I am having trouble quickly finding diminished 7th chords on the fretboard, so I'm looking for a relatively simple song that has a few diminished chords in it, that I can practice in all keys.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Jonathan
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12-27-2016 03:24 PM
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You get different contexts for diminished chords, so I'll chuck a few different ones at you. Dim 7's are pretty common in older tunes, especially in the last few bars of the tune.
Air Mail Special (B section)
Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered
All the Things You Are (last 8 bars)
I Can't Give You Anything But Love (again, last 8 bars)
Best thing is to look at some '30s style swing tunes, loads of diminished chords in those...
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Once I Loved has a few.
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Some reharms get rid of the dim7s as they are considered a bit old school.
Stella by starlight used to have dim7 chords in it for example. :-)
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The 'A' section of any rhythm changes tune offers a lot of scope for working with diminished chords.
Take the first two bars of rhythm changes, a basic I-vi-ii-V progression in its original form:
| Bb G-7| C-7 F7 |
It soon acquired a secondary dominant VI7 chord:
| Bb G7| C-7 F7 |
Extend that G7 chord with a b9 then remove the root and you're left with a Bo7:
| Bb Bo7 | C-7 F7 |
The following two bars essentially repeat the basic I-VI-ii-V progression but usually open with a substitute iii chord (Dm7) for the I. From there, it was a logical step to introduce a biiio7 (C#o7) in bar 2 to replace the V7 (F7) and provide strong movement via a chromatic bass line:
| Bb Bo7 | C-7 C#o7 | D-7
Although both these substitutions have a dominant function, it's worth noting that the first is closely related to its parent chord (G7>Bo7) whereas the second is a little more oblique in its derivation (F7>C#o7).
The substitutions listed above are diminished additions but as Christian has pointed out, the general tendency has been to remove diminished chords, especially those without a leading dominant function (sometimes termed as a 'true' diminished) when playing standards. The original Real Book from the '70s was largely responsible for that trend. A notable casualty occurs in bar 3 of I Got Rhythm where Gershwin's passing diminished chord is now rarely heard:
| D-7 Dbo7 | C-7 F7 |
One last instance where a diminished substitution is regularly added can be found in bar 6 where the minor iv chord (Eb-6) may be replaced with a #IVo7 (Eo7):
| Bb6 Bb7/D | EbΔ7 Eo7 |
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Great post! BTW I play early jazz/swing stuff, and I would play a Rhythm Changes A section like this:
Originally Posted by PMB
Bb Bo7 | Cm6 C#o7 | Bb/D Dbo7 | Cm7 F7 |
Bb Bb7/Ab | Eb/G Ebm/Gb | Bb G7 | C7 F7 |
There are some swing era variations though... This is a Christopher Columbus A section
Bb Bb7/D | Eb Eo7 | Bb Bb Bb7/D | Eb Eo7 |
Bb Bb7/D | Eb Eo7 | Bb Bb Bb7/D | Eb Eo7 |
Might seem a million miles away from the Rhythm Changes most people learn, but they do the same thing, which is to move between the basic functions of the key I, IV/ii and V7.
It's just that the moving chords are different.
Ain't Misbehaving can be thought of as a Rhythm Changes A section variation that goes to IV in bar 4, as can Bewitched. Check out Serpent's Tooth by Miles Davis
Notice how important the bassline is. Dim chords are great at helping you come up with chromatic basslines
As Barry Harris said 'whatever happened to the biiio7?' The 'true diminished' chords (nice term!) were usually used to do that back in the day. It also has some special voice leading properties.
I jut remembered two absolute stonkers of diminished tunes:
How Insensitive
CorcovadoLast edited by christianm77; 12-28-2016 at 09:08 AM.
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Definitely, it's all about chromatic bass lines in the examples I mentioned whether dominant in function or not.
I offered rhythm changes as an example because it's interesting that all the diminished chords we tend to play in the 'A' section either have different functions from each other or were arrived at by alternate routes.
Barry's right about the biiio7. It's so often replaced by ii-Vs in tunes like Just Friends and Darn That Dream (the latter was even altered melodically to accommodate the substitution) although more recently guys like Peter Bernstein have been influential in getting players to check out the original changes. It's not so much about reproducing them faithfully as stripping away what's been added over time in an attempt to rebuild tunes from scratch.
Incidentally, as I wrote out that D-7 to Dbo7 change, I immediately thought of How Insensitive. Jobim's tunes are full of 'true' diminished chords.
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That sort of thing used to really bug me. Specifically what happens in bars 4-5. It was one of the first chinks in what I think of as the 'vertical jazz harmony' paradigm. Eo7 or Ebm6? Totally incompatible chords, right? Originally Posted by PMB
I mean you can see it as a E diminished scale relationship, and that's cool - might give you some ideas. But then what about Ab7#11 - another common sub? You can tie yourself in knots understanding this stuff and I think in the 50s they were too busy playing gigs (rather than writing long theses on internet forums lol). These progressions go back to the pre-jazz era, so it's really stretching it to think Louis was thinking dim scale relationships when playing a #IVo7 over IVm6 in Twelfth Street Rag.
Nowadays, I understand these are simply moving chords used to get from I back to IV. They are essentially interchangeable, melody permitting. Lester, Bird and Miles play IVm over #IVo7, for instance.
IMO none of the great players seem to worry about the vertical stuff in this context. It's important if you have a chord that sticks around for a while, but in a medium to fast rhythm tune, it doesn't matter.
But conversely we can use, for example, bIIIo7 over V7 in the context of bar 2 of Rhythm Changes - play the old changes over the new. In a wider sense play any turnaround over any other:
Bb6 Bo7 | Cm7 C#o7 | Dm7
Bb/D Dbo7 | Cm7 F7 | Bb6
Bb6 G7 | Cm7 F7 | Dm7
Bb Bb7 | Eb Eo7 | Bb
Bb Bb7 | Eb Ebm6 | Bb
(We can even turn the Bb chord and Eb chords into a Dominant 7ths whenever we want, because Blues.
Bb7 | Eb7 | - Barry Harris's framework for bar 5-6 of Rhythm changes
As Fm is the ii of Bb7 so to speak:
Fm Bb7 | Eb Ab7#11 | Bb
Our modern post-bop choice.)
As we understand Cm7 = Eb6 and Dm7 = Bbmaj9 (and if we need it Gm7 = Bb6) we can see these progression as all basically the same thing:
Bb --movement--> Eb --movement --> Bb
(Or however you want Bb and Eb to be.)
(I came across an example of this type of thing yesterday BTW: Adam Rogers plays biiio7 on chord VI7 in his solo on Dexterity on his album Light - bar 9 of the solo. This reminds me of the sort of thing Django used to do. BTW the first two A's are almost like a tribute to Lester Young to my ears. Also AR is a modern jazz egghead and no doubt uses dim scale harmony all the time.)
In a wider sense any moving chord can be played over any other... I see this an awful lot in both Bebop and Swing lines. As long as the line resolves it doesn't matter whether you have, say, a E on an F7 chord.
Dissonance and resolution... The cornerstone of Western music... But now in polychordal layers... That's jazz harmony to me.. Not systematised vertical relationships on every chord.
I knew about Darn That Dream, didn't know about Just Friends, although I guessed it was originally bVI7 or bIIIo7 or something...Barry's right about the biiio7. It's so often replaced by ii-Vs in tunes like Just Friends and Darn That Dream (the latter was even altered melodically to accommodate the substitution) although more recently guys like Peter Bernstein have been influential in getting players to check out the original changes. It's not so much about reproducing them faithfully as stripping away what's been added over time in an attempt to rebuild tunes from scratch.
It's a bebop thing, ironically (given Barry's complaint!)... An early example is Groovin High. The original Whisperin' turnaround is:
Eb/G Gbo7 Fm7 Bb7
While Dizzy outlines in his melody:
Gm7 Gbm7 Fm7 Bb7
He'd put a chromatic ii-V in there if he had time. Chromatic ii-V's are another type of' moving chord. Could put them in a Rhythm Tune.
I reckon quite a bit of that Benny Golson style sideslip harmony comes out of subbing dim7 chords with ii-V's
I actually wrote a tune like this. My attempt at Rhythm Changes via Golson. It was stupid and hard to play, so I just said 'blowing changes rhythm.' Naturally the horn player took it as a challenge and wanted to blow on the changes. Bless 'em. I'll post it on a different thread as I've already derailed this one enough haha!
Sometime, I'll also post my analysis of Stablemates...Last edited by christianm77; 12-28-2016 at 09:53 AM.
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Caravan, particularly the A section, in the Real Book--long stretch of one diminished chord.
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A Foggy Day:
FMaj7 - F#Dim7 - Gm7 - C7 etc...
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Any blues -- substitute a diminished chord a half-step up from the IV chord on the second half of its duration (e.g., on bar 6 of a 12-bar form, or on the last two beats of bar 2 if there's a "quick IV"). Originally Posted by darby
In tunes that have a iii-VI7-ii-V7 ending/turnaround, you can replace the VI7 with a biidim7 (e.g., instead of Bm-E7-Am-D7 on a tune in GM, you can play Bm-Bbdim7-Am-D7 ). Some tunes are explicitly written this way (e.g., Out of Nowhere), but it usually works even if they're not.
Some other tunes with dim7's at various points in the changes:
It Could Happen to You
All of You
Bye Bye Blackbird
Body and Soul
Ain't Misbehavin'
Night and Day
John
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How insensitive, if it hadn't already been mentioned Originally Posted by darby
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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There are so many tunes that open with this progression or something similar (basically, a I-vi-ii-V) - A Foggy Day, Easy Living, It Could Happen To You, Have You Met Miss Jones... (and of course, rhythm changes). I remember discovering some years ago while working on Miss Jones that the descending #iv progression, usually reserved as an ending, is one possible variant. Originally Posted by Larry Feldman
Take the basic changes:
FΔ7 | F#o7 | G-7 | C7 |
Convert the diminished chord to a ii-V progression. In this case, either major (A-7-D7) or minor (Aø7-D7b9) will work with the melody. Let's take the major version:
FΔ7 | A-7 D7 | G-7 | C7 |
Add a IV dominant chord in bar 1:
FΔ7 Bb7 | A-7 D7 | G-7 | C7 |
Finally, apply tritone subs to the I and VI chords:
Bø7 Bb7 | A-7 Ab7 | G-7 | C7 |
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I thought it was a reasonable request. Originally Posted by 55bar
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September song
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Great example! Originally Posted by pingu
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Quite possibly. I read recently that the sideslip at the beginning was added by Golson at a later date after hearing others include it in their performances. Coltrane's Moment's Notice opens with a kind of a mirror image - the same ii-V (E-7-A7) sideslipping up rather than down. Maybe it was a tribute (they were close friends and fellow students of Dennis Sandole). Originally Posted by christianm77
Slightly OT but I love the story that Golson was visited by his ex-wife between sets on stage in the early '50s. As she started to talk details about their divorce, Benny pulled out some paper and began to write, pretending that he was too busy to get into deep conversation. Those initial scribbles became Stablemates.
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Thanks for all the ideas!
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You can understand it from the point of view of this progression Originally Posted by PMB
C C#o7 Dm7 G7
C#o7 --> Dbm7 Gb7, after all, this is a common sub:
C Ebo7 | Dm7 G7
C / Ebm7 Ab7 | Dm7 G7
So,
C Dbm7 Gb7 Dm7 G7
By diminished symmetry we have also:
Gb7 --> A7 --> C7 --> Eb7
So, we see also that Dbm7 Gb7 is related to Em7 A7... (Or Em7b5 A7b9, for that matter for extra diminished-ness.)
This is the substitution formula I used in my tune. I have no idea whether or not this is what Golson and Trane were thinking, but it's a fun thing to do.
By extension, it should be perfectly legit to understand Moment's Notice like this:
| Em7 A7 | Fm7 Bb7 | Eb | Abm7 Db7 | Dm7 G7 | Ebm7 Ab7 | etc
becomes
| Eo7 | Fm7 Bb7 | Eb | Abm7 Db7 | Do7 | Ebm7 Ab7 | etc
Which would become this (notice the close relationship between Abm7 Db7, Do7 and Fm7b5 Bb7b9)
| Gm7b5 C7b9 | Fm7 Bb7 | Eb | Abm6 | Fm7b5 Bb7b9 | Ebm7 Ab7 | etc
Though whether or not you would actually play it this way is another thing. I might play around with this, actually.Last edited by christianm77; 12-29-2016 at 06:01 PM.
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Nice! That's certainly one way of hearing it. You might also like to check out this article where the author posits that the tune is really in C. He goes in the other direction: E-7 A7 = iii-VI with F-7 Bb7 as a 'backdoor cadence' to C: Originally Posted by christianm77
Flirting with C | JazzEd Magazine | Jazz Education
Melodically speaking, it's interesting how Coltrane highlights the one common tone that links every chord in the first 3 bars - G = b3 of E-7, b7 of A7, 9th of F-7, 13th of Bb7, 3rd of Eb. It also belongs in all of your alternatives: b3 of Eo7 & Eø7, root of Gø7, b7 of A7b9, 5th of C7b9. Considering that the 5th is the most common pedal tone for linking related chords, perhaps there really is a case for C major being the home key.Last edited by PMB; 12-29-2016 at 10:53 PM.
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Great thread.
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