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I've just started in an ensemble where there's also a pianist. I'm planning to have a talk with him about comping strategies, but I'm wondering if y'all have any tips on being in a group with a pianist.
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03-14-2016 09:58 AM
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Lay low.
Piano players rarely have an "off switch."
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Ha! Well, true enough. I mean, I can act like a horn player and just lay out during other people's solos, but I'd rather work something out where we can alternate or switch off tunes. I really like playing together with a pianist, but that's a complicated dance.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I think that's fair...although I'm not sure you can expect him to lay out completely...or even would want to, really.
I like playing with a piano player...I can lay back, and really focus on the RHYTHM of what I'm doing. I like to think like a drummer dropping bombs, even. Or I can go old school and play some one or two note "chords." Or I can even create a little riff, or play an octave, or something else...WWCCD?
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Yes you're on the right lines there. What you need to do is during your talk, ask him to demonstrate his favourite chord which uses all 10 fingers, then slam the piano lid down as hard as you can. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
If done properly, this will free up some space for your comping.
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*Snort!* Originally Posted by grahambop
Electric keyboard. No lid.
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Oh dear! And he's amplified too - that's the guitarist's other weapon rendered useless! Originally Posted by Boston Joe
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Q: Oh you're a guitarist. Do you play piano?
A: Hell no, we only play forte.
Ha ha. Try spending some time playing free improvisation, free of a specific song form structure. The process of dialogue will bring out any strengths and weaknesses you may have in dynamic and conversation that are masked by "getting through a tune".
It depends so much on the personality of the pianist. Sometimes planning your roles as far as comping and interacting beforehand is a good idea. Often, it's just assumed someone will play to cover up the silence, or out of nervous habit. Respecting space doesn't come naturally until you actually make a conscious effort.
Sometimes it just doesn't happen...for a while. Sometimes you take the role of a horn player; other situations, a horn player can become a comping player.
Do you have the opportunity to experiment with group dynamics? It goes a long way.
Just a suggestion
David
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David, I do always try to keep in mind the stuff that we've talked about at Westland. That said, I doubt there's going to be much time for free improv. We meet for 90 minutes once a week, and we're looking to get down a bunch of tunes, so it's going to be pretty focused on getting that together. I can talk with him (which I'm planning to do), and maybe we can work out a time to get together on our own and kick some ideas around. I'm open to just about any arrangement as long as it doesn't leave me not comping at all.
In the Fareed Haque video I've been working with, he does talk about the guitar acting like a horn section, and instead of full-on comping, just doing little chordal stabs here and there.
Also,
Q: How do you get a guitarist to turn down?
A: Put sheet music in front of him.
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I've played with lots of piano and organ players. I listened to a lot of Kenny Burrell and Jimmy Smith for the model of how its done.
One thing you can do, and I've done this in my trio when we've had piano players sit in and jam with us, is take on the role of a horn player. Play the heads, take the first solo, lead the general mayhem, but leave the piano player to fill the comping role. Trust me, you won't have to say a word, the piano player will just assume the role since they are, after all, piano players.
another thing is to just get out of their way. Play up high and use a sparse comp rhythm to add to what the piano player is doing. That's how Kenny B plays with Jimmy Smith
a third thing is to work out when each of you is comping. That's the gentlemen's way I guess, but I don't like this approach. Its too much like a "peace treaty" for me. While we're at it, why don't we just paint a line down the middle of the bandstand a'la "I Love Lucy"
and yet another thing is to play just the 3rd and 7th and get in tight with the piano player's left hand. Once you get to know a player, you can do that and make it work.
then finally, when none of that works, I just fire the piano player
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There's no single solution that will work for you, since it depends on your musicianship, his musicianship, each of your personalities and what other instruments are around. And of course the tune.
The general rule is you don't both comp at once unless one guy (usually guitar) is laying it down subtle 4-to-the-floor (anyone who thinks this is uncool should check out Herb Ellis with Oscar Peterson - maybe Old Devil Moon with Anita O'Day singing) or something similarly predictable. Sometimes one guy will comp while another plays fills.
I've had good success saying to pianists that I'm not expecting we are 50/50 for comping duties, but that 100/zero doesn't work for me. That usually leads to an acceptable arrangement. Usually I will comp for bass solos and maybe one other player while the pianist will comp for the others.
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Check out the great mini video lessons from Dave Stryker on this very subject:
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Thanks! That's great! I like Dave Stryker a lot. Originally Posted by David B
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Originally Posted by coolvinny
vinny, this isn't directed at you, but I've always fought against this prejudice. This is the common and prevailing attitude, so you aren't wrong to say it, but I find the most fun playing with piano players is comping together
I've just had too many good friends that played piano for me to stand around with my hands in my pockets while these guys were playing, so I always liked to comp with them
now, you do need to know the guy to do this. You have to use a lot of anticipation, which is why I don't do this with strangers, but if the two players know each other and have played together and both are on the same page, then this is actually a lot of fun to do
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I agree. I quite like playing with pianists. It's great when it works. (It's a nightmare when it doesn't). I've only ever done it at jam sessions, though. With a standing ensemble, I kind of want to make things a little more polished. Originally Posted by Nate Miller
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Are we taking about sharing comping like 50/50, or comping at the same time?
If the former: I hear you, but personally I'm not a fan of bashing my head against a brick wall...trying for 50/50 with an amateur (and probably most pros) pianist is not realistic in my opinion. And usually I will play more of the heads (even with horn player present) than the piano player, so to me this kind of evens things out.
If the latter: The horn players I know only want to hear one person "comp" behind them. Again, there's nothing wrong with one person "comping" while another plays fills and/or guide tones...but they don't want to hear two people chording, generally. Some of the finest compers I know are horn players - they play those sweet guide tones. But two people "chording" at once? Well, maybe some like it, but I don't and most players I know feel the same way. Comping is like single playing in that one should be thinking in phrases, 4 bars maybe. I think that works best with one person holding it down, building a rapport with the soloist/drummer etc during a solo.
Originally Posted by Nate Miller
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to each his own.
it doesn't surprise me at all that the horn players you know say that. Most horn players prefer piano players anyway. I've had to fight that prejudice, too, all my life.
but when I play with my friends that are jazz piano players I'm going to do what I want. Also, remember that I'm a bandleader for most of the last 20 years, so I'm used to getting my way. If a horn player on my gig didn't like me playing with my buddy Mike behind his solo, I can accept that. Its a free country, he can get off the bandstand, I'd understand
but saying that absolutely the two instruments can't work together is the prejudice that I've fought against for the last 40 years. It can work if the two guys are listening and know each other
...but that is a mighty big "if", I'll give you that
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This is something I'm paying a lot of attention to lately, as I've started playing with a group regularly. I play the most when the piano player gets up in the middle of the tune to get another beer!
When I listen a lot to Wes and Wynton Kelly, I notice Wes sits out some, but also plays a lot of repetitive rhythmic figures. What might sound kind of robotic if you were the only comper can fit in nicely when the pianist is playing more syncopated stuff.
In more modern stuff (I'm thinking Mike Moreno and Lage Lund) there are likewise some times when the guitar sits out, but others where he plays stuff that fits in around the piano. It's a fascinating subject, and so many bands now have both piano and guitar.Last edited by dingusmingus; 03-14-2016 at 02:42 PM.
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Good point. Maybe I'll try some Freddie Green type stuff, then see if I can expand that without getting obnoxious. Originally Posted by dingusmingus
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regarding the guitar playing sitting out sometimes...and I'm saying this from the point of view of a bandleader that is trying to play music the nice people are actually going to like...
one of the traps any group can fall into is getting predictable about the solos.
so if you have a piano player AND a guitar player, yes, definitely try and play together (I'll always endorse that) BUT breaking things up and not doing the same thing every tune is important for your band, so in the bigger picture having certain tunes where one of you is laying out is also a very good idea
I'm just against the idea that guitar and piano CAN'T play together. We don't always HAVE to play together
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I'd ask my bandmates what they really expect from a guitarist in a group with a pianist....in the end, a musician's duty is to do whatever serves the music best.
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Fire the piano player! =) Originally Posted by Boston Joe
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I played in a large band when I was in college, and we often split into small combos. Very rarely would there *not* be a piano player...in fact I can only think of 3 times I played without one.
I vividly remember an exchange with the director about comping against a piano/bass. I was stuck on playing the close-voiced chords on the middle 4 strings. He simply asked me if I could give some breathing room to the bass / piano. So, I learned to play only the "interesting" notes of a chord, which usually wound up being just the 3rd and 7th. I also re-learned my voicings and played a lot of rootless chords as well.
Ironically enough, it also freed me up....jumping around moving only 2 or 3 fingers is MUCH easier than moving a whole hand. It also allowed the guitar to stand out in the mix better.
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anytime you are playing with a bass player, this is a real good idea. Same goes for the piano player, too. Originally Posted by shanejohnson2002
if you have the 3rd and 7th on your D and G strings, put your extensions on the B and E strings and don't play much of anything on the low A and E strings
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Go see Stanley Jordan live some time ... just sayin'.
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