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Originally Posted by srs
So I am waking this thread alive again, cause I really wanted to ask what the purpose of that 5 position study is. I talked to Barry briefly, and was told to improve my comping I should as a first step(as a newb) do that study and also learn the secret jazz chord. Not that I doubt the study at all, I just want to be sure I get the most out of it. I recognise many of the shapes from either drop 2/3 or shell voicings.
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12-08-2018 03:17 PM
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The objective of the 5 position approach is to direct you towards the mastery of the fingerboard. Most guitarists struggle when their hand lands in a certain position, in a certain key. They run out of room. They paint themselves into a corner. Even accomplished players. Knowing Eb, for example, in all areas of the neck, is essential to gaining the freedom required to improvise. So the 5 position ( which covers the whole neck) approach in all major (with related modes) and minor melodic keys is absolutely necessary. Barry gets you to work on this and there is no other remedy if you want to be an accomplished jazz guitarist. Once you're able to connect these positions, you will be breaking through many barriers.
Cheers,
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Originally Posted by Fazmaster
I guess it's just about taking CAGED/5 position a step further then. In each position you should know all your chord voicings(like the PDF teaches you), the relevant scale shapes, arpeggios etc. So you are basically grouping it all in 5 positions. Which is how I have thought about it lately, cause it's a lot better to get an overview. Correct?
Edit: I just went through all the I chords in the study, and guess what, it was position 1=C, 2= A, 3= G 4=D, so CAGED all over. That was great to see. It means that the work I have been doing in the Joe Elliott Introduction to jazz soloing, is basically Barry. He also labels it as pattern 1-5. So by continuing the book I will learn the melodic minor in all the positions, according to Barry's method as well
I know Barry isn’t using arpeggios a lot, but still, learning the melodic minor and major scale in 5 different patterns is the exact same :-)Last edited by znerken; 12-09-2018 at 06:13 AM.
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I like to go through the cycle of fifths instead of key to key. And yes, the CAGED system is a different but similar way of getting through a key on all areas of the fingerboard and is based on basic chord shapes. The way I see it, for example Eb, start playing the scale on string five, fret 6 using your pinky. Then start with your middle finger. You'll have two positions covered. Do the same at string 6, fret eleven. The fifth position will basically come when you start in this position using your first finger and extend past the twelfth fret (F minor also mirrored on fret one of the fingerboard)
...and yes, melodic minor is essenetial (using the same method) if you're going to properly deal with altered dominant, flat 9, half diminished and yes, minor chords.
Cheers,
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Originally Posted by Fazmaster
I think CAGED is 100% identical, except the name. In fact, I did a random test on two of Barry's major fingerings from his book, and they are identical to how I know them. He calls then position X(insert number), and I call them position Y(insert letter). I think that's great, because it makes even easier to start with for 5 position people
However. my question was more regarding the position study in terms of voicings. How do you take that study onwards to another tune? Do you reuse the voicings etc. I mean not all the melody notes in a different tune will fit his extensions.
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Originally Posted by znerken
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One thing I am not grasping is why the F dorian or F melodic minor fits over all the chords. Is it as simple as the fact that if you make chords from either of those scale, they will fit the chords?
E7(#9,b13) = E G# D C G
F Dorian = F G Ab Bb C D Eb
No E in F dorian o.OLast edited by znerken; 12-09-2018 at 01:13 PM.
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I think you're off a semi tone here. F melodic is related to E7 type chords, not Eb.
F mel min starting on E
E F (b9) G (#9) Ab (3rd) Bb (b5) C (#5/b13) D (7th) E (R)
F dorian is pushing the boundaries because E is not part of the scale but oddly, it works providing your time is solid..
transposes a semi tone lower for Eb7 type chordsLast edited by Fazmaster; 12-09-2018 at 01:14 PM. Reason: Typo
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Originally Posted by Fazmaster
Haha I just fixed it. I used Eb, because I know E doesn't fit. So it fit's perfectly over F mel min then, that's good. So each of the chords will fit perfectly over at least F dorian or F mm?
Testet with for example Dm11(b5), and it fit perfect. Nice. So the easiest way to know which scale, I guess, is to think about what chord that Secret Jazz Chord would represent, if it were the first(dorian chord). So if you are playing a Dm11(b5), you know that if it were a dorian, it would be Fm6/9, so you know you can use F melodic minor or F dorian.
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So I watched Barry's Line Connection video, and I now understand that in a way he takes CAGED a step further? He always identifies which chord scale to use, by the relevant drop 2 chord being underneath the position he is in. So he has 5 positions, and 5 places to play F Dorian, for example. Now, does he then have 5 positions for all the other 6 chords in Eb-major? Which of course would be the same positions, just different ways to identify them.
Wouldn't you get the same effect, by just using CAGED, or 5 positions, and identifying them by which key you are in? You are in Ebmaj, position 1, you know all your arpeggios, so you know how to target chord tones, and you know your major and melodic minor scales, so you know how to use notes besides chord tones?
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I'm not too sure how Barry does it. I did the 3 day trial on his site which was nice. Great player. But I was looking for some very specific stuff that wasn't necessarily on his site, for me.
I use the 5 CAGED shapes(ala Pat Martino and Howard Roberts, and many others). I also use 3NPS from plenty of rock playing in the day But Caged is my go to with scales, Arps and even pents when I really want to hit the changes.
I don't think about starting on a different finger, I just see each shape completely and in my mind highlight the root note(of the mode) and chord of that particular mode. But I have to see everything across the neck-in this case with CAGED I see 5 shapes each covering one of 5 chord shapes for a type of chord(Maj, min, Dom).
I've worked this out For Major/Ionian(Tonic, and often group vi I and iii in this), Dorian(subdominant-ii IV) and Mixolidian(dominant V vii).
It's kinda like Herb Ellis but I don't have the Dorian and Mixolidian shapes solely off the E and A shapes. I've worked them out for me with all 5 shapes. In the end this was the easiest way to make the changes in my improv.
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Barry's lessons are amazing that's for sure and for only $19.99 a month its an amazing deal
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Okay, it's been a while. Been working with the 5 position study and the SJC. I am not quite sure I grasp the use of the SJC yet though? Well, specifically about the scale approach. Okay, so I have found out what the different dorian and melodic minor shapes are underneath each voicing, but
Why is this so important? You still got to be aware what you are playing? So if you are using the voicing for an alternated dominant chord, you still would think melodic minor 1 step above? If you are using it as a dorian chord, you still got to think either X dorian, or x dorian in relation to Y major? How did you all approach the SJC? Barry says it is one of the most important thing he did to unlock fretboard mastery and knowledge. How come I don't see it yet? I am probably the one to blame, but a friendly push in the right direction would be much appreciated!
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What is the SJC? sorry for my ignorance
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As a joke I was going to suggest ‘secret jazz chord’ but maybe it is!
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Yes the Secret jazz chord
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A bit of googling suggests this is somewhat similar to Pat Martino’s ‘convert everything to minor’ approach.
If so then yes you would need to ‘convert’ each time.
I don’t know much about Barry Greene’s approach, but I’ve dabbled with the Pat Martino thing and it does get easier eventually, you start to associate the right lines with the right chords without having to mentally ‘convert to minor’ each time.
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great!! .thanks!!!
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Originally Posted by grahambop
SJC is secret jazz chord.
SJC is one chord grip, which can be 6 chords. And you can play both X melodic minor and X dorian over all those 6 chords.
It's probably inspired by Pat, but not in the way you suggest, I think? Sign up for a free trial and watch the video on SJC. It's a sweet voicing. You probably already use it for either altered dominants or Ø711.
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I found a true fire pdf which suggests you play the same minor scales on the 6 various chord types yielded by the ‘secret chord’. That is in fact very similar to Martino’s minor conversion approach.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
I think my problem is understanding why having two scales underneath the chord is so extremely “good”, and how that helped Barry so extremely. That is due to my lack of understanding though, so I hoped someone could help me understand it.
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I assume it just gives a few more sounds/flavours/extensions etc. But I don’t really know what Barry’s reasons are.
Must admit I tend to think of ‘minor’ as one general entity, the differences between MM and Dorian etc. just being details. I tend to use a lot of chromatic passing notes in lines, which I suppose blurs these distinctions a bit. I guess I’m always trying to think in terms of melodic lines rather than scales as such.
But I have found Martino’s minor thing useful, like him I always found it easier to hear and play minor lines for some reason. So using them to unlock dominant and altered dominant sounds in particular was a big step forwards for me.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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I have several of Barry's videos. I have found them to be some of the best "bang for the buck" instructional materials out there. I appreciate how Barry shares his thought process during these videos. I too find more and more useful stuff on repeated viewings. His "Comping the Blues" is loaded with ideas.
Any more thoughts/opinions on Barry's secret chord video? I don't have that one...yet.
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Originally Posted by alltunes
KA PAF info please
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