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Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
many thanks,
Sean
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12-02-2015 02:18 PM
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Sean: It is (partially) written out at Jazz School Online but it's essentially, Eb6o for the Cm7 and some consecutive inversions of the Related Dominant for F7 (Ao) and G7 (Bo).
I find using Sixth Diminished for the IIm7 chord works best with a 3 feel.
Thanks
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thanks Alan, I think I'm going to sign up for your course.
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Anyone enrolled in the Jazz school online
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Wes Montgomery used these chords scales in his chord solos, as I'm finding out by transcribing. Maybe in comping too, but I make heavy weather of transcribing and haven't transcribed any comnping as it is even harder to hear, and I'm still a beginner really. I do find that using the diminished chord for a 7b9 can get a bit tired if used exclusively like in Alan's video, but I'm certain that Alan was just illustrating a concept and the real joy comes in the freedom of being able to use many different approaches, depending on the desired sound. I have Roni Ben Hur's video and pamphlet which I have found very helpful. Does Alan's book bring anything diofferent to the table?
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I have the book and like the approach and resulting sounds, if could someone to be SPECIFIC and show/reference where you can utilize in/on a standard, without getting implying
Before bleating, you need to look and do the work, I do and have, and have no problem understanding anything, presented here.
Wes did the same thing but not with Maj6 Dim and Min6 Dim scale. JP also had a system but not like Barry H.
Using a different scale produces different sounds, Allan Holdsworth uses a similar method but from completely different scale choice. Although harder to hear not 251 or two chords in a measure (Generalisation here )
Barry is absolutely amazing.
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So Wes didn't use these chord scales? I hear many examples of min 7 chord scales over the min 7 chord which is exactly the same as the maj 6 diminished chord scale. I've even heard the minor 7 chord scale built on the 3rd of the tonic to produce major 9 sounds but with diminished linking chords. This is an interesting sound as one can get a chromatic 9, b3, 3 chromatic line. If you have some better insight into the playing of Wes Montgomery, pray tell.
Last edited by plasticpigeon; 12-03-2015 at 05:08 AM.
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Sorry should have been clearer of course he did everyone does, just a passing note between 5&6, he tends to harmonize in a different manner but similar on occasion to Barney, using dim7/dom7b9 shapes, and briefly chords of same shape
There is no scale Wes did not play. and certainly used use minor7 over minor 7 in a dorian context, I dont really want to have to go through 20 odd albums to find a specific track. A little too busy playing myself.
ALL i meant is he does not Harmonise with the same scale, i am sure he did at times but generally utilized his own method, Barry and Wes they played together 58 ish ( I think ) Barry loved Wes playing and who knows might have applied the same logic but using different scales, nothing new here, harmonize Harm minor or Melodic minor or Major results in quite different chords. Ask Mr. Holdsworth.
Wes was not afraid to play virtually an entire major scale, normally from M7 below root, and like Django the timing was sublime, it did not have to resolve Note wise but rhythmically, ( I cant explain this in technical terms) in the sense at the end of phrase/line it changed rhythmically, never sounding cheesy always highly musical. This is what separates Django and Wes from the pack. There are some brilliant Gypsy players nowadays, although not my main thing, to my mind they dont quite have that perfect time thing. No disrespect to anyone.
Harmonizing scales produces certain tonal areas, rather like Mr. Holdsworth also does the Barry Harris thing BUT using different chords pulled from Parent scale, rhythmically totally different, with the frequency of chords ie not two per measure, Allan's chord are harmonized from different scales, the moment there is a #5 in a major chord you know something is happening, he does not use a lot of diminished,
In fact it would be interesting to ask Barry, what he thought in relation to Wes's harmonization, I dont know Barry but there are people on the forum who know him. No harm in asking.
Something not frequents mention is Barney Kessels harmonization style. Think a new thread/post might be good.
Wes thought highly of Barney Kessel Harmonic knowledge.
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Interesting observations here about different styles and approaches to the same fret board. Comparing the styles of guitarists like Wes, Joe Pass, Barney Kessel is revealing. Of the three, which seem to have a more similar style? I would have to say Joe and Barney are closer to each other than Wes. All three are influenced by the blues but to different degrees. Barney is the most 'traditional' guitarist in terms of fingerings. Joe is fairly traditional as well. Wes is different in how he fingers his interpretations and often I find he works harder to play the same notes, but that helped define his signature sound.
The fret board is the same in standard tuning for everyone. It is how you transition and how you hear the notes and execute that make the difference in my opinion.
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I once worked out the chord solo lines Wes played on a long G minor run - I think it was on a version of Summertime from the 'Live at Jorgies' LP.
Starting from the G minor barre at the 3rd fret and ascending up the scale, it would be something like this, for each degree of the scale. These chords are all using the top 4 strings only.
1: Gm7 (or maybe Gm6)
2: Diminished
3: Gm7 (inversion)
4: Diminished
5: Gm7 (inversion)
6: C7
7: Gm7 (inversion)
8: Gm6 (i.e. using a barre on the 15th fret). You could also view this as a rootless C9.
So a bit like Barry Harris, but Wes stops using the diminished after the 'halfway' point, and does not have the extra half-step between the 5 and 6.
Of course Wes makes more melodic lines out of it than just a scale, sometimes he ascends, sometimes descends, sometimes ascends on 1, 3, 5 ,7 then descends on 6, 4, 2, etc.
I could probably write out the exact chord shapes if anyone would find them useful. I use them quite a lot for chord solos.Last edited by grahambop; 12-04-2015 at 07:22 AM.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
That would be great if you could write them out
Ken
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Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
Also I had a chance to dig into the Alan Kingstone Barry Harris book last night, and I got some nice stuff out of that. I know you were asking for specific examples based on this book, so maybe I'll try and put a couple of those together as well.
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You guys know that there is a poster on YouTube who has analyzed out several of Wes' solos and provides a virtual fret board as well as running sheet music of the tunes, right? Like I've Grown Accustomed to Her Face. I'll try to link it. You can see quite virtually what Wes is playing. He has his own sense of harmonization and fingerings. But in the end it's all music.
Last edited by targuit; 12-04-2015 at 09:39 AM.
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12-04-2015, 10:11 AM #264destinytot Guest
Using Bb6 as scale reference for the Gm7 chord in the above example (same notes), the extra half-step between the 5 and 6 would be a Gb.
That Gb note is a chord tone belonging to the V (7/dominant) chord of our Gm7 chord - that Gb note, as F#, is the third of D7.
And on that Gb, we build a diminished chord.
To borrow and adapt from grahambop, an instant eight-note harmonised scale comes from:
1: Gm7
2: Diminished
3: Gm7 (inversion)
4: Diminished
5: Gm7 (inversion)
6: Diminished
7: Gm7 (inversion)
8: Diminished
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Originally Posted by targuit
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Originally Posted by destinytot
The Barry Harris system of harmonized major or minor 6 chord scales is basically this (key of Bb)
Bb6
Cdim
Bb6 (inversion with the D in the bass)
Ebdim
Bb6 (inversion with F in the bass)
Gbdim
Bb6 (inversion with G in the bass)
Adim
note that you get a dim chord every minor third .Last edited by NSJ; 12-04-2015 at 10:32 AM.
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Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Originally Posted by grahambop
Thanks Doc!
Ken
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12-04-2015, 11:27 AM #270destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by NSJ
And I do think you're right to name the pitches. Perhaps I was mistaken in thinking that having fewer terms to deal with might be helpful.
As I prefer to stop thinking once I feel I've understood something, I usually leave theory to the big boys. Once I've understood sounds in context, nomenclature matters less to me - if at all - than function. (On the subject of which, I'd call Alan's book to a game-changer for guitarists.)
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Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
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Look... it's not complicated... the complicated aspect is just the technical part of being able to play your inversions etc,,,
The basic concept is... I to V and back to I and back to V etc...
The next step is to camouflage what your playing so the functional aspects of V to I aren't so strong and obvious. So you use Bbmaj6 Chord and the Dim chord for the V7 chord, which becomes the related V7b9 chord.
So with the Bbmaj6 chord the Cdim7 chord is functioning as a F7b9
The G-7 or G-6 chord is just the related Min versions of the Bbmaj...
Bbmaj6.....6 X 5 7 6 X
Cdim7.......8 X 7 8 7 X
Bb6/D.......10 X 8 10 8 X
Ebdim7.....11 X 10 11 10 X
Bb6/F.......13 X 12 12 11 X
Gbdim7.....14 X 13 14 13 X
Bb6/G ......15 X 15 15 15 X... is just G-7, make G-6... 15 X 14 15 15 X
Adim7.......17 X 16 17 16 X
You can stay in one basic position by playing the Gbdim7 on root 5th string etc. Basically the entire pattern can be transposed how ever you choose to use... the entire concept is just using a target chord and using the V7b9 chord for creating movement between the inversions.
This is just one approach to creating harmonic motion.... it becomes very vanilla and boring if that's all you use etc... as does almost any one approach. The down side of this approach is how somewhat non descriptive the motion becomes. Result of the organization of notes.... way to symmetrical, but when used with many of the other harmonic motion techniques... has it's place and can be very hip, at least the 1st few times you hear or use it.
As with most theoretical concepts, the concept or theory isn't the problem.... it's the technique and being able to actually perform the approach without just memorizing chord patterns. And also creating actual melodic lines on top of the chord patterns.... just playing scales or arpeggios on top really isn't that melodic.Last edited by Reg; 12-04-2015 at 12:11 PM.
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Just another note... very rarely do you have that much time to play any complete version of the Maj or Min chord motion pattern above. Again it's just a Tonic - Dominant chord patterns with inversions, in it's self very boring, but when you use the pattern to help support or voice a melodic pattern or melodic groove, and bring in other harmonic aspects... subs, approach chords and also Tonic to Subdominat chord patterns... use of Blue notes and Melodic Minor for lead line references...much bigger door and harmonic options, anyway can become very useful.
But as always... the technical performance aspects are much more important than the concept when your playing.
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Originally Posted by Reg
Exactly what I've told people online and off just write it out see what it creates. Then play it and listen to the sound it offers. The experiment with it and get a feel for how to use it in phrases (chordal and melodic). That will teach far more than some example because you will have absorb the concept and the feel applying it.
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Here are the chords Wes Montgomery used to create a chord solo in G minor. They use the top 4 strings only.
Blowin in the Wind
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