Question about the 13th....

[barrymclark]

A 13th is a dominant 7th ( a semitone below the major 7 ) along with a 6th in the chord. They are not the same note. They are separated by a semitone.

Going in reverse from the root: Root- major 7 ( written as maj 7) - dominant 7 ( written as 7 ) - 6 - b6 - 5 etc

Also major-minor designation only applies to the third. The b7 ( dominant 7th ) is just implied with it and will be designated otherwise if it is a maj7 with the b3.

How is the 6th and 13th not the same? Not being confrontational. Honest question.

C(1)-D(2)-E(3)-F(4)-G(5)-A(6)-B(7)-C(8)-D(9)-E(10)-F(11)-G(12)-A(13)-B(14).

Is my method of intervallic numbering incorrect?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

How is the 6th and 13th not the same? Not being confrontational. Honest question.

C(1)-D(2)-E(3)-F(4)-G(5)-A(6)-B(7)-C(8)-D(9)-E(10)-F(11)-G(12)-A(13)-B(14).

Is my method of intervallic numbering incorrect?

I think the confusion here is whether we are referring to an interval or to a chord.

1. A 13th interval is an octave plus a 6th interval.

2. A 6th chord is a triad plus a sixth, while a 13th chord is root + 3rd + 5th + 7th + 9th + 11th + 13th.

... and the 11th is often omitted if the 3rd is a major 3rd and the 11th is perfect. On guitar we may just grab the key notes which will give the essential colour of the chord, so:

7th, 3rd and 13th: G13: xx345x
or
3rd, 9th, 7th and 13th: G13: xx3200

With those two chords, I'm assuming the bass with cover the root and fifth.

[Eddie Lang]

How is the 6th and 13th not the same? Not being confrontational. Honest question.

C(1)-D(2)-E(3)-F(4)-G(5)-A(6)-B(7)-C(8)-D(9)-E(10)-F(11)-G(12)-A(13)-B(14).

Is my method of intervallic numbering incorrect?

C6 = Major chord
C13 = dominant chord

[barrymclark]

C6 = Major chord
C13 = dominant chord

The idea being that since the 13 implies the inclusion of a 7, and therefore requires the notation of a maj/min? So... since C6 implies that a 7 cannot be included then the chord spelling isn't deep enough to distinguish itself as a dominant. Am I following?

[keith]

How is the 6th and 13th not the same? Not being confrontational. Honest question.

C(1)-D(2)-E(3)-F(4)-G(5)-A(6)-B(7)-C(8)-D(9)-E(10)-F(11)-G(12)-A(13)-B(14).

Is my method of intervallic numbering incorrect?

Your quote was " A 13 indicates that a 7 is used despite it being the same note as a 6. "

I was just commenting on that sentence that the 7 and 6 are not the same. Perhaps it wasn't intended that way? But yes, A is the 6th of the C major scale and B is the maj 7th.

[Eddie Lang]

The idea being that since the 13 implies the inclusion of a 7, and therefore requires the notation of a maj/min? So... since C6 implies that a 7 cannot be included then the chord spelling isn't deep enough to distinguish itself as a dominant. Am I following?

For example C:

C6 would be C (root), E (3rd), G (5th) and A (6th). You may omit the 5th and even the root if it is covered by someone else - so you could play only the 3rd and 6th. BTW, on a Maj chord, you may play, substitute or alternate Maj7 and Maj6.

A dominant chord needs that b7. You may play the chord with only the 3rd, b7th and 13th.


So C13: root, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 13th.

[whatswisdom]

...the chord is C minor, sixth, not C, minor sixth...if that makes sense.

Common chord progression: C- > C-M7 > C-7 > C-6. Mr.B: Is the last chord called a minor sixth?

[barrymclark]

Your quote was " A 13 indicates that a 7 is used despite it being the same note as a 6. "

I was just commenting on that sentence that the 7 and 6 are not the same. Perhaps it wasn't intended that way? But yes, A is the 6th of the C major scale and B is the maj 7th.

OH OH OH. I see the confusion. Bad wording on my part.

[Reg]

Like I asked... either old , old... school Maj/Min functional harmony guidelines.... or what is actually used for composition and performance.

Relating intervals to chord names... oh yea that how I read charts... come on.

Just as we do with roman numerals and analysis... we relate everything to maj. Common practice notation is to notate Maj, and Min. There are harmonic relationship with reference to analysis and then there is performance notation... two different aspects of using chord symbols.

When you see C7... that is in relationship to Maj... the notation implies b7... Dom.

When you see anything min. there are many possibilities. If you don't see anything beyond the 7th, C-7. You're suppose to be able to know what's implied. The notation implies Natural 13th, (6th). But that isn't always right.

Part of playing jazz... is understanding harmonic implications. It's not simply play what's notated.

Eventually you'll realize... the notation is giving you harmonic information which spells the complete chord.

When you see C-6... the 6th is natural... but what's more important is that the 6th is notated to open harmonic doors.

The history lesson is great for general knowledge... but not much for performance.

[whatswisdom]

When you see C-6... the 6th is natural....

Right. And don't we say that C-6 is "C minor sixth?" I think there may be some confusion in that someone out there reading this is interpreting the chord as having a b6.

[mr. beaumont]

Common chord progression: C- > C-M7 > C-7 > C-6. Mr.B: Is the last chord called a minor sixth?

That's what I'd call it...the classic "minor cliche."

I think the stuff Reg is talking about--implications, is really important...you have to know a little more than just the chord name...you see a m7 chord, what comes after? Is it functioning as a ii? Charts are always a suggestion, they get you in the ballpark...

[2bornot2bop]

Now.... the Em6 should imply the flatted 6. Correct?

For simplicity, Am6 should have an F whereas the Am13 will have an F#. Is that the determining factor?

No. An Emi6 has a MAJOR SIX. The minor only refers to the minor 3rd. All minor means is the 3rd is flattened a half step.

[whatswisdom]

That's what I'd call it...the classic "minor cliche."

Agreed. The reason I chose the cliche as an example was to clarify the minor sixth chord spelling.

[JonR]

John, you always say this...but if you just understand that the formula is the formula and apply, there's no need to complicate things.

I agree. The formula is "major scale, but with b7"; and then deviations from that are marked accordingly.

I was only listing the details (unnecessarily, no doubt )

I'm perfectly fine with someone telling me: This is the way it is, learn it...but that's just me.

No, I guess a lot of learners are fine with that too.

But then there's the question "well, what exactly IS "the way it is"?"
With each question on a specific chord, we can say "that's just the way it is - this chord has these notes in it, that's all you need to know" (I often say that sort of thing in beginner classes). That kind of suggests that "the way it is" is different for each chord type, that there is no system governing it.
But any learner will soon discern that there are patterns - that there is (therefore, apparently) a system behind it; albeit one with a few ifs and buts.

I'd agree that there's no urgent need (therefore) to detail the system to begin with. It can easily be "too much info" (and I know I tend to be guilty of that ). At the same time, to reduce the system to a deceptively simple rule is asking for trouble; because students tend to like simple rules, but then exceptions crop up soon and regularly.

[JonR]

I have no issue being told how it is. I just want to understand the how and why.

So, just so that I understand:

The maj/min designations imply the flattening (or not) of only the 3rd and 7th intervals. Yes?

"maj" in a chord symbol
implies the raising of the 7th. "m" or "min" implies the flattening of the 3rd.

All else must be specifically noted if differing from the major scale of the same root.

Yes.

A 6 in the chord name indicates that a 7 is not used.

Yes.

A 13 indicates that a 7 is used despite it being the same note as a 6.

It indicates a 7th as well as the 6th. Just remember "13 = 7+6". Same as "9 = 7+2", and "11 = 7+4".

In a general sense, am I catching on?

In general, yes!

[JonR]

The idea being that since the 13 implies the inclusion of a 7

Yes.

, and therefore requires the notation of a maj/min?

No (see above).
A plain "13" chord (like "C13") contains a major 3rd and minor 7th - no mention of either is necessary in the chord name.
Notes C E G Bb (D) A.
The 9th (D) is optional and the 11th (F) would be omitted - but those rules are more to do with the sound of the chord than the naming principles. The simple rule is that the extension number represents the last one in the stack: 1-3-5-7-9-11-13. But for practical reasons, some lower notes may sometimes be omitted.

So... since C6 implies that a 7 cannot be included then the chord spelling isn't deep enough to distinguish itself as a dominant. Am I following?

More or less, yes.

The standard chord type is dominant, if you like, because we assume a major 3 and minor (b) 7.
Ie, "C7" = C E G Bb = V (dominant) chord in F major. (That's its derivation, although it might be used in other ways.)
"Cmaj7" = C E G B. "maj" means the 7th is raised from its default position. This chord could be I (tonic) or IV (subdominant), never dominant.
But if there is no 7th, then the chord has no clear function. "C" and "C6", could be I, IV or V.
IOW, a C triad or a C6 chord, could be a V (dominant) in F; but generally (in jazz at least) we understand "dominant" to mean a major chord with a b7.

So "C13" is definitely a dominant type chord (because of its b7), while "C6" is not.

"Cmaj13" (btw) indicates the raised 7th (B), meaning it's not a dominant type, and cannot have a dominant (V) function.

"Cmaj6", therefore, is a redundant symbol - the chord has no 7th, so the "maj" is meaningless. (We know the triad is major already).

[JonR]

Right. And don't we say that C-6 is "C minor sixth?" I think there may be some confusion in that someone out there reading this is interpreting the chord as having a b6.

Right. The "minor" in the chord name refers to the 3rd, ie the triad type. The "sixth" is assumed to be major, needing no qualification.

[Reg]

OK... we're talking about reading chord charts... tunes Right. General Practice... Not harmonic systems of organization etc...

Chord symbols all relate to Major and there are general guidelines for notation of what to play.

You notate Maj., Min. and nothing for Dom. . (all still in relationship to Maj.)

There is a difference between C13 and C(add13). C13 includes all chord tones up to the 13th. C (add13) implies a Cmaj triad and a 13th. So the complication... does no use of maj... imply Dom. or b7. Technically... yes.

That's one of the faults with chord notation. The system is based on "Standard Chord Symbol Notation", by Carl Brandt and Clinton. There are some other serious problems... but that what we have.

Chord symbols are really guidelines to where the chord is from. Part of playing is to be able to understand what's implied from the notation... the chord symbol.

Generally... Minor implies...b3rd and flat 7th. The rest is natural or Maj. If something else is wanted... it's spelled out.
1 , b3, 5, b7... 9, 11, 13. If something else is wanted, it would be spelled out.

The problem... most don't really know what the upper or extension chord tones are.... and even more important they can and usually do change as the tune is performed.

So generally you start with Dorian... not Nat Min or aeolian. 50 years ago... sure.

The same guidelines apply to Dominant and Maj. you spell if you want something different.

You need to be aware of the context, the tune and whom your performing with... When you see C-6.... there are lots of options. Very rarely do jazz players simply play the spelled out chord symbol. Generally One chord symbol represents a chord pattern... which implies the harmonic context. This skill of understanding chord symbol notation is somewhat like using an outline to speak from.

Reg

[JonR]

OK... we're talking about reading chord charts... tunes Right. General Practice... Not harmonic systems of organization etc...

Chord symbols all relate to Major and there are general guidelines for notation of what to play.

You notate Maj., Min. and nothing for Dom. . (all still in relationship to Maj.)

There is a difference between C13 and C(add13). C13 includes all chord tones up to the 13th. C (add13) implies a Cmaj triad and a 13th.

Which is same as C6, yes?
If not, what's the difference? (I've not seen a "C(add13)" before.)

So the complication... does no use of maj... imply Dom. or b7. Technically... yes.

That's one of the faults with chord notation. The system is based on "Standard Chord Symbol Notation", by Carl Brandt and Clinton. There are some other serious problems... but that what we have.

Chord symbols are really guidelines to where the chord is from. Part of playing is to be able to understand what's implied from the notation... the chord symbol.

My understanding is that a chord symbol (once we understand the shorthand...) tells us what notes we need. It tells us nothing about derivation (key context or function) or voicing - with the exception of slash chords, which can define inversions.

Generally... Minor implies...b3rd and flat 7th. The rest is natural or Maj. If something else is wanted... it's spelled out.
1 , b3, 5, b7... 9, 11, 13. If something else is wanted, it would be spelled out.

Right - for minor tones and extensions, yes. (I thought at first you meant all chord symbols.)

The problem... most don't really know what the upper or extension chord tones are.... and even more important they can and usually do change as the tune is performed.

Yes, if extensions are not mentioned in the symbol, that's true. Eg, if we see "E7" as V in A minor, we don't know if the 9th should be major or minor (b9); or maybe #9 of course.
But any extension mentioned in the symbol is independent of context. "9" is always a major 9th (octave plus whole step), unless it has "b" or "#" in front. (Just clarifying the point.)
One of the best and most important things about chord symbols is they always mean the same thing (as far as the signs they include) regardless of context. But yes, if extensions are not marked, we need to make a judgement from context as to what they might be.

So generally you start with Dorian... not Nat Min or aeolian. 50 years ago... sure.

For minor chords, yes.

The same guidelines apply to Dominant and Maj. you spell if you want something different.

Yep, for major tones and extensions, it's like starting from mixolydian: assuming 1 3 5 b7 9 11 13, and marking any deviation from that.

You need to be aware of the context, the tune and whom your performing with... When you see C-6.... there are lots of options.

I guess main choices would be:
dorian (2, 4, b7)
melodic minor (2, 4, M7)
Rarer possibilities?
2nd mode melodic minor - phrygian nat 6 (b2, 4, b7)
4th mode harmonic minor - (2, #4, b7)

For voicing, of course, huge choices.

(If you mean something different, can you elaborate?)

Very rarely do jazz players simply play the spelled out chord symbol. Generally One chord symbol represents a chord pattern... which implies the harmonic context. This skill of understanding chord symbol notation is somewhat like using an outline to speak from.

Right!
Chord symbols give you a bunch of notes, basically.
"C-6" = Cm6 = C Eb G A. That's fixed in terms of what the symbol means - the set outline. (In reference to the OP's question - understanding the language of the symbol first, eg that "6" means major 6 and not b6.)
But - as I think you're saying - one is at liberty to (a) play a selection of those notes rather than all of them, and (b) add any other extensions implied by context, or (if context is ambiguous) according to taste.

[JohnRoss]

So the only assumed exclusively minor scale notes in a minor chord are the 3rd and 7th?

Well, the seventh of a minor chord is almost always a minor seventh in terms of naming (Am7, Am triad plus G natural). However, the correct seventh of a tonic minor is the major seventh, not the minor, G# over Am, for example (AmMj7, or something like that). It is true that there are often good reasons for not playing a G# over an Am chord, including anachronism, but if you must build a seventh on a tonic minor, that's what you get. If you play a G natural instead, you're going outside the key.

[Reg]

There are many musicians that look at a chart and play just what the basic notation says... right or wrong. Those generally aren't what are called jazz musicians. If you understand the shorthand you would be aware of harmonic content and context. And yes chord symbols do imply tonality and function... all within the context of the tune and with reference to Common jazz practice.

Jon... I'm assuming, your speaking for your self... I know what's implied by chord symbol notation. There are usually a few choices... but I'm aware of those... this isn't a special talent. It's part of being able to read chord symbol notation....

Chord symbols don't always mean the same thing...

Jon you can mechanically go through all the possible choices of where a C-6 chord could be from. What I was referring to was... as I said, you need to be aware of the context,( the tune, where and whom your playing that tune with), with reference to common jazz practice... and then make a choice.

You don't always have all the information. It's not needed... when the chart says swing, straight eights, samba, or mambo... that information give you rhythmic, melodic and harmonic information... When you use a montuno, line cliches, pedal, ostinato... or any common chord pattern... there not going to be notated out with chord symbols... but you should know what's implied... which version to use from the chord symbols.

It may not seem black and white... but that's because you don't understand the notation...(or the theory and harmonic concepts), behind the notation. And trying to use Traditional Maj/Min functional harmony as guidelines for playing or understanding... won't cut it. Your going to see and sound just like your interpretation of the notation.

How many of you use #5 on dominate chords, and if so, what's the harmonic implication. Do you know why your use to that chord symbol... why you might use that notation...

Who really cares... Most guitarist have trouble with basic chord symbols, what would happen if real notation was used
as compared to chord symbols...

I've had to read different django, Venuti with Vln transcriptions at gigs, it's a bitch... and I read well. Much easier to learn jazz chord symbol notation...

Jazz guitar... if you pick a few tunes... I'll play/read the chord symbols and try and explain possibilities of what the chord symbols actually mean.... besides, Rt b3,b5,bb7.

Or not...

Reg

[JonR]

Jon... I'm assuming, your speaking for your self... I know what's implied by chord symbol notation. There are usually a few choices... but I'm aware of those... this isn't a special talent. It's part of being able to read chord symbol notation....

Chord symbols don't always mean the same thing...

Jon you can mechanically go through all the possible choices of where a C-6 chord could be from. What I was referring to was... as I said, you need to be aware of the context,( the tune, where and whom your playing that tune with), with reference to common jazz practice... and then make a choice.

Sure. I just wanted to clarify what kinds of choices you're talking about.
I agree about context, of course. Context, surely, limits our choices, right?
I mean, the "mechanical" scale associations are what they are (ignoring chromatics for the moment). A "Cm6" chord is what it is (the notes C Eb G A, in some combination). This thread started as a way of clarifying that bottom line. I'm not denying all the contextual stuff on top that comes from experience.

You don't always have all the information. It's not needed... when the chart says swing, straight eights, samba, or mambo... that information give you rhythmic, melodic and harmonic information... When you use a montuno, line cliches, pedal, ostinato... or any common chord pattern... there not going to be notated out with chord symbols...

Quite! Nobody is saying they are...

but you should know what's implied... which version to use from the chord symbols.

Sorry Reg, no disrespect here, but I'm not following you: "which version" of what? You mean a voicing of the chord?

It may not seem black and white... but that's because you don't understand the notation...(or the theory and harmonic concepts), behind the notation. And trying to use Traditional Maj/Min functional harmony as guidelines for playing or understanding... won't cut it. Your going to see and sound just like your interpretation of the notation.

But this is all beyond the question, which is what does the chord symbol "Cm6" mean? At bottom, it means something very obvious and direct (a collection of 4 notes, with a nominal root), which has no bearing on style, expression, rhythm, anything else.
It's written in a language that derives from "Traditional Maj/Min functional harmony" (the assumption of tertian chord structure), but that doesn't mean such a chord can't be used in any other kind of harmony.

How many of you use #5 on dominate chords

"dominant" (Sorry Reg, you know way more than me and play way better, I'm just a pedant with terminology. You never know who's reading...)

, and if so, what's the harmonic implication. Do you know why your use to that chord symbol... why you might use that notation...

Well, I do...

Who really cares... Most guitarist have trouble with basic chord symbols, what would happen if real notation was used
as compared to chord symbols...

The mind boggles....

Jazz guitar... if you pick a few tunes... I'll play/read the chord symbols and try and explain possibilities of what the chord symbols actually mean.... besides, Rt b3,b5,bb7.

That could be a good exercise. I won't suggest a tune myself at the moment, but I'd like to read such an analysis if others are interested.

[Reg]

Yes actual playing something...from chord symbols might help.

When I see C-6... I very rarely just play a C-6.
When I see one chord change... I rarely just play that chord.

Generally with jazz notation... one chord implies a tonal concept. With C-6 as an example, if I was to play any voicing of that C-6 and nothing else... I would be miss reading what's implied, not always... but most of the time.

Is that C-6 really a sub for A-7b5, is the change a part of altered II- Vs.
Is the C-6 a camouflage for Cmm or some other standard chord pattern.

The difficulty with how Jon views chord symbols and analysis... is that it's based on One version of tune. Generally in jazz tunes there are a few different harmonic concepts going on simultaneously... different harmonic systems working together... there are always different possibilities of what an analysis could be based on. Always different possibilities of how to read chord symbols...

I'll make a playing example...

Reg

[JonR]

Yes actual playing something...from chord symbols might help.

When I see C-6... I very rarely just play a C-6.
When I see one chord change... I rarely just play that chord.

Generally with jazz notation... one chord implies a tonal concept. With C-6 as an example, if I was to play any voicing of that C-6 and nothing else... I would be miss reading what's implied, not always... but most of the time.

Is that C-6 really a sub for A-7b5, is the change a part of altered II- Vs.
Is the C-6 a camouflage for Cmm or some other standard chord pattern.

Sure. Those would probably be the two most common scenarios for a Cm6, IMO. (I assume by Cmm you mean Cm(maj7)?)

The difficulty with how Jon views chord symbols and analysis...

Sorry Reg, I think you're misunderstanding me. From what you say, I see chord symbols and analysis the same way you do. I certainly have no quarrel with what I think is underlying what you're saying. I'm only focussing on real basic stuff - the kind of things you (and I) take for granted, but which are not obvious to a beginner. Eg, just that fact that the "6" in "C-6" means an A note and not an Ab. The bare information a chord symbol provides, that is - which (as I'm sure you agree) doesn't include any instructions on how to voice the chord, or rules about how or where that chord might be used, what scale it fits, or whether we even want to play it at all (if comping or improvising).

Generally in jazz tunes there are a few different harmonic concepts going on simultaneously... different harmonic systems working together... there are always different possibilities of what an analysis could be based on. Always different possibilities of how to read chord symbols...

I think you mean how to apply the symbol, what conclusions to draw from it.

Eg, I "read" Cm6 the same way every time: as the 4 notes C Eb G A. I don't see how one could "read" it any other way. How I treat those four notes will vary depending on context.
IOW, a chord symbol is like a word. A word is always spelled a particular way, but its meaning and application could vary. I'm only talking about spelling.

I'll make a playing example...

Reg

Look forward to it . (I always do to your playing.)

[Reg]

Hey Jon... no problems, sorry if I'm trying to push a point and for addressing you directly. But...

That is what I'm talking about...When you see C-6,(or what ever chord), you hear and see, C, Eb, G, A. I don't, I see and hear those notes along with what's implied by the context. When do you ever just see or hear C-6 ? A verbal discussion... I guess.

But the other 99.9% of the time we're talking about the chord being used in some context. And when used in a jazz tune... the notation implies more.

If your playing "I'm Beginning To See The Light", and the chart's in "G" but because of a vocalist... your playing the tune up a minor 3rd, Now In "Bb", You don't still play the tune in "G", you play the tune in Bb. Even though the changes are in "G".

Reading and playing jazz tunes is similar... Just because the notation may only say C-6, you need to know what else is implied. The more you play jazz... the better you understand the chord symbol notation.

In I'm beginning to see the light.... The C-6 chord isn't just C,Eb,G,A... the changes are telling you that Parallel minor is being used to camouflage basic blues.

In Desafinado... the Bb-6 chord in 2nd ending is also a parallel min compositional device used with Modal Interchange... to camouflage modulation.

In each case the isolated spelling of the chord is still a min 6th chord... but most of what's going on would be missed if you only played the physically spelled notes of the min. 6th chord. Not bad... but your not reading the notation from a jazz perspective. Your reading the music from a Classical perspective... not bad, but not jazz.

For me personally it's like reading a line in unison with a player and he/she the ignores the articulations and dynamics... or if the tune said swing and the player plays the line with straight eights.

At some point... even beginners need to learn to read the chord symbols from a jazz reference.

I'll still post something... I'm lazy, sorry. I'm always playing.

Reg