Comping Solo

**randalljazz** · 11-26-2012, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by Vladan

BIAB seam to make quite good solos on standard progressions. However feed him something really basic, but even remotely unorthodox, in any sense, and the result is pure rubbish.

kinda like most players...

**william251082** · 11-26-2012, 07:58 AM

Some amateur player thought that if you comp you have to suggest harmonies on the soloist. Nothing couldn't be further from the truth, your job as an accompanist is rhythm, if the soloist is good enough he/she can outline the changes on his/her solo. Getting in the way of the soloist is not only unmusical but rude.

**Reg** · 11-26-2012, 11:14 AM

You might want to rethink your concept of playing Jazz...

**william251082** · 11-26-2012, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

You might want to rethink your concept of playing Jazz...

You might want to watch Gary Burton's improv class. He explained the purpose of the accompanist.

**NSJ** · 11-26-2012, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Kojo27

Cool, NSJ. You don't consider the guide tones one strings 3 & 2?

I guess you could, there are no hard and fast rules, but if one is lingering on a chord for 1+ measures, it helps to have at least 2 strings available for melody notes. I usually think of strings 1-3 as the melody note strings (1 and 2 as the core melody strings), anything at or near middle C or above, that ventures around the treble clef area (as actually heard on a piano, not as written in guitar notation, which is usually written an octave above the actual sound(s)).
Again, not hard and fast rules, more like ballpark thinking.

**mr. beaumont** · 11-26-2012, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by william251082

Some amateur player thought that if you comp you have to suggest harmonies on the soloist. Nothing couldn't be further from the truth, your job as an accompanist is rhythm, if the soloist is good enough he/she can outline the changes on his/her solo. Getting in the way of the soloist is not only unmusical but rude.

Who was that? I haven't seen anybody say that in this thread.

If you're going to come out with big, insulting talk, you might want to back it up with a quote...otherwise, you're just preaching to the choir.

**william251082** · 11-26-2012, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Who was that? I haven't seen anybody say that in this thread.

If you're going to come out with big, insulting talk, you might want to back it up with a quote...otherwise, you're just preaching to the choir.

You know that's not what I meant. I trust you're mature enough to understand that.

**Reg** · 11-26-2012, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by william251082

You might want to watch Gary Burton's improv class. He explained the purpose of the accompanist.

Thanks william... I've know Gary for many years, have played gigs with yada, yada. I tried to watch his class video... a little to slow... if you could give actual quote and context... there might be room for a different interpretation.... If you want backing track style accompaniment...how would that be jazz being played in a jazz style. Last time I checked, the rhythm section was alive and also reacting and interacting while playing Jazz....When's the last time a chart was all that was played...

Generally when you tell someone the way it is... you might want to give examples and work your way in... I've posted well over 100 or 200 videos on this site to back up my BS... I play(gig) all the time, I can hang in any most musical situation, (some not so musical).

But maybe I don't understand what you mean... maybe a more detailed description and examples would help make your point.

Reg

**william251082** · 11-26-2012, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Thanks william... I've know Gary for many years, have played gigs with yada, yada. I tried to watch his class video... a little to slow... if you could give actual quote and context... there might be room for a different interpretation.... If you want backing track style accompaniment...how would that be jazz being played in a jazz style. Last time I checked, the rhythm section was alive and also reacting and interacting while playing Jazz....When's the last time a chart was all that was played...

Generally when you tell someone the way it is... you might want to give examples and work your way in... I've posted well over 100 or 200 videos on this site to back up my BS... I play(gig) all the time, I can hang in any most musical situation, (some not so musical).

But maybe I don't understand what you mean... maybe a more detailed description and examples would help make your point.

Reg

Where I'm getting at is that 'interacting' and 'getting in the way' are different. Gary mentioned about a drummer who played double time while he's busy with his solo and that harmonic instruments playing something unrelated to what the soloist is doing. That's more of 'getting in the way' rather than interacting.

No disrespect to anyone, I just want to get my point across. We have different ways of expressing our opinions. From the posts that I see here, there are a lot of intelligent people so I trust that they can handle different thoughts well.

**NSJ** · 11-26-2012, 05:19 PM

I think one way to practice compimg solo is to practice playing melodies that work well with the main melody line. As Bert Ligon has said to comping pianists And guitarists: "Don't play chords, play lines!"

My teacher has comped for many great singers in jazz and popular music (Sinatra, Garland, Peggy Lee, Belafonte, Mathis, Miriam Makeba, Sassy, etc) and his personal practice working behind such singers is to improvise on the spot elegant, effective counterpoint lines that work well with as accompaniment and make the singer sound good.

No doubt. Easier said than done. One really has be an attentive listener to pull it off on the spot.

**mr. beaumont** · 11-26-2012, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by william251082

You know that's not what I meant. I trust you're mature enough to understand that.

Well, that was the problem-- I didn't know what you meant--that's why I called you out on it.

No worries, though, I get you now. Originally, I thought you were calling out another member, which I thought was unwarranted...

**Tony_C** · 11-26-2012, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

And you've got to have a plan...look at the form of the tune...it's just like practicing soloing really...you exhaust all possibilities and then in the moment you can just react and play...

I would say that is probably the best you can do. Make sure you are fluent with switching between various voicings, reharmonizing, various rhythmic permutations, all that stuff.

I also agree with all the suggestions of playing with others/your own improvisations/BIAB/or soloists without chordal instruments? I know Sonny Rollins has some sax trio records. Your soloist won't listen back to you but at least you can make him sound nice :O!

As for the argument of the role of the comper it seems a bit silly to say it is this or that. I have seen so many great jazz musicians say so many different things. Some of them make it clear that this or that is their preference, some say it like 'this is how it should be'.

Gonzalo Bergara (gypsy jazz player) says he likes a steady groove behind him without so much flair. He wants to go where he wants to go.

There is some pretty elementary roles a comper can play and I think all should be explored. Here are a few as I see it:

1) 'Wallpaper'. Steady rhythm/groove. Soloist is completely in control of where his solo goes.
2) Compliment. You respond to his ideas directly, and the general direction the solo is going i.e building towards a climax, settling down etc. You are enhancing where he is going (which in the process make it be a different place)
3) Push. You 'mix things up'. You are feeding him things to play with. It is like you are suggesting all kinds of places he can go with his solo, and how he deals with the suggestion is up to him. Taken to the extreme a solo is more like a collective improvisation.

I find most dudes mix this up consistently, many times playing underneath the same solo. Depends on who you're playing with, what kind of stuff you're playing, etc. You can do these things all in a subtle or overt way. You can push a soloist without sounding like you are jumping off the deep end.

If I understand you correctly William you are saying the comper shouldn't state the harmony because the soloist is already doing so. Again, to me this depends. The sound of the harmony and melody 'lining up' might be desired (I'm playing G Mixolydian stuff you are playing a straight-forward G7), a clash might be, an abstraction might be.

Edit: Read your most recent post. Doesn't seem like that was quite what you were saying. Sorry dude.

To me the role of a 'comper' is pretty all encompassing. Ultimately though if it sounds like the comper is stepping on the soloist's feet there is probably a reason, and it is the comper's place to realize 'oh okay maybe this dude doesn't deal with this kind of rhythm playing well' or 'this isn't want he wants'.

In his book Bob Moses says he comps around the melody of the song while others are soloing.

**william251082** · 11-26-2012, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_C

If I understand you correctly William you are saying the comper shouldn't state the harmony because the soloist is already doing so. Again, to me this depends. The sound of the harmony and melody 'lining up' might be desired (I'm playing G Mixolydian stuff you are playing a straight-forward G7), a clash might be, an abstraction might be.

For me, the soloist is the boss and my job is to make him/her sound great. Maybe I'll take risks with people that I played with for years, because they're more familiar with the way I play but not with a new guy.

**mr. beaumont** · 11-26-2012, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by william251082

For me, the soloist is the boss and my job is to make him/her sound great. Maybe I'll take risks with people that I played with for years, because they're more familiar with the way I play but not with a new guy.

Yeah, I think that's pretty important...I guess you could say, the less I've played with someone, the less I play...

Now, I have one cat I've jammed with for a few years, and we'll throw things at each other when playing as a duo--"see if you can hear this!" kinda stuff--changing tempo, playing upper extensions in the comping, introducing strong rhythmic ideas to see if the soloist can latch on to it...keeps it fresh...but you gotta have a good rapport with someone before trying that...

**william251082** · 11-26-2012, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Well, that was the problem-- I didn't know what you meant--that's why I called you out on it.

No worries, though, I get you now. Originally, I thought you were calling out another member, which I thought was unwarranted...

It's all good man.

I enjoy this forum a lot, there's a lot of people who has great insights in jazz.

**Tony_C** · 11-26-2012, 06:00 PM

Ah, I got you. That is the basic attitude I start with. Playing 'out there' things and intensely pushing the guy you're playing under is something you do when you know the dude is cool and comfortable with it. I was just emphasizing the openness of what you physically/actually can choose to do.

There is (in a lot of modern stuff especially) those kinds of situations where things become real 'open'. I wanted to leave room for that in my post. There are just times when it seems more a collective thing than anything else.

**mr. beaumont** · 11-26-2012, 06:05 PM

You're kinda hitting on the most important thing, Tony--know the style, and play in it...

Gonzalo Bergara wants that "pompe" to drive the band...there's no drums...rhythm guitar in a gypsy jazz setting is a drum that makes notes...

In a modern jazz setting with a bass and drums and piano, I'm staying out of the way...sparse...but I can be colorful too, because dissonance isn't frowned upon...much different than if I'm playing in the same lineup at the cocktail lounge...

Our place becomes very different in different roles...

**Tony_C** · 11-26-2012, 06:38 PM

Yah it is interesting because Gonzalo's view is kind of an extreme. He doesn't want tremolo or anything. Just straight pompe.

We actually have a drummer in my gypsy jazz band who is into the modern thing. At a gig once I implored him to open it up, and he sure as hell did. Kept the pompe going and I would say it sounded pretty cool.

It is indeed all context.

I would say Julian Lage is a masterful comper in all manners. He is a master of appropriateness. The videos of him and Frank Vignola *nods slowly*...

To the original poster I would try this out:

Every measure play a chord on 1. The second time you play a chord in that measure start on the and of 1. The next measure play the second chord on 2, next measure and of 2 etc.

You can also just try this with random 8th rhythms, every 5 eighth notes (to imply 5/8), stuff like that. Not so sure I've done this myself, but I will one day haha.

Rhythm is the thing you have to work at being the most free with I think. Being free with voicings is more of a technical issue. Choosing your voicings with fierce intention of complimenting the soloist is an ear thing. Just gotta be able to really hear what he is playing.

You can also do this kind of stuff with strummy rhythms.